sobo

I thought you told us Abe Lincoln said that... Besides, I would think that Iron Mike would have more to say about ears than faces. Jus' sayin'...

Good luck, foraker! I'm sure you'll enjoy Lugano much better. I grew up in northern Tuscania, and spent a fair bit of my youth skiing in northern Italy, southern France, and a few trips to Switzerland. Too bad I was too young to know about Der Eiger at that age. Of course you'll probably check out Wengen and Zermatt, but if you get the chance, tourist skiing in Cervinia and Sestriere ain't so bad. Kinda like Whistler on steroids... Mind if I ask what it is that you do for a living that allows this fortunate turn of events in your life?

Other strategies to deal with dead horses...

POTD!!!

...or Kansas?

Me and a buddy from my Mountain Rescue unit ripped Nelson Ridge on our teles for years until I moved to the Tri-Cities. Nice shots, and thanks for letting out the secret...

Yeah, Matt, I would have to concur with all of what you said. I'll leave it up to Zeta to take this thread where he wants to from here. I said my piece(s) 2+ years ago; I do not need to repeat them. ZM- I hope that you get the response that you are looking for in this thread. Good luck.

Because, using your own time frame as a reference, the ANAM report wasn't out yet "over two years ago" - they're not published until August of the calendar year following the accident, which would put the discussions you refer to as having occurred in mid-May, 2007 at the latest. The accident was in December, 2006... ZM- I know full well when the accident occurred, and also when ANAM comes out. Please read the highlighted portion of my statement above again. Everything that we here as a group discussed, speculated, opined, and beat to death over two years ago was succinctly stated in the ANAM report that came out subsequent to our hashing and rehashing. The report contains nothing new that we hadn't already been over many times before. As such, the report stands on its own merits, and nothing more need be discussed. Those that seek to glean some secret nugget of climbing-related lore from the accident can read the report and come away just as informed as they would (perhaps even more so, avoiding the "chaff" as you say) by participating in any lengthy rehashing of the event on the internet, IMHO.

Well, Doug, I wasn't going to be the one to say it... And has Porter has decreed above, I think "spray is done in this thread."

The full report can be found at the link I posted above and in andrewb's post on the first page. Ivan made the right calls on the contributory factors to the accident. I would add "inadequate equipment/clothing", since it seems the party cached most/all of their bivy gear, stove/pot, etc. at the TJ hut. FYI: In reviewing the "raw data" form originally posted by andrewb and comparing it word-for-word (yes, I'm bored at work today) to the "revised" report on tradguy's Traditional Mountaineering website, I find absolutley no differences. So I do not know why Speik (tradguy) refers to his version as "revised."

Calling catbirdseat... calling CBS. Brian, respond please.

ivan- On the first page of this post, andrewb posted this link to the ANAM report form. Since it didn't underline in his post, I think many here may have missed it. It is the "raw data" form that ANAM uses to compile their reports, and was submitted by Jeff Scheetz of PMR. Porter- Zeta Male himself found and posted a link to a revised version of the report found on tradguy's website, Traditional Mountaineering. That link is in ZM's second post to this thread, so I do believe that ZM has indeed read the report. Zeta Male- I am at a loss to comprehend why you continue to press for commentary on this accident. As has been opined by several already, many of us here feel that we have already said our piece on this event. We beat this thing to a horrible death in at least three different threads over two years ago. The ANAM report is out, and there's really not much more to say about it that hasn't already been said a hundred times before. At least, not until the other two bodies show up (if they ever do) and provided they surrender additional evidence of what occurred up there.

So that's why they call 'em ribeye steaks, huh? Jeezus, I crack myself up...

Oh, yeah! I'm all over that...

Do they offer a spectator's membership...??

Hey, Couloir's back! We need more sexy ass avatars. Pleez replace those whores' mugshots with more tasty backside pics. OKTHNXBAI!

It's all bullshit! Doesn't anyone here remember Capricorn One?? Oh, and resize that pic, Bill... it's harshing my mellow.

Busy times up there this past weekend. Link to Saturday's rescue So WTF is that supposed to mean? She gets clipped by some ice and her party stops the bleeding. But then, all of a sudden, she's promptly rescued, just because her party was wearing MLUs??? From where does a comment like that originate? Props to PMR and the other climbers who delayed/aborted their summit aspirations to help with both rescues.

Similar: "It's all fun and games until someone gets their eye poked out --- then it's hilarious!" ...Author unknown

Marcin, I took my very first WFA course 8 years ago, in October of 2000, and they taught all of that stuff then. I've recertified every 2 years since 2000 and that stuff has been a large and critical part of the 2-day course every time. BillA, Please know that this discussion is NOT meant to deter interest in people singing up for the WFR course you are advertising. I just tought that people should be aware of the differences (and similarities) between the two.

Marcin, I'm not looking at it from a SAR perspective. If I were, I would agree with you that WFR is overkill. I was looking at it from the standpoint of a 2-person climbing team in the alpine/backwoods, requiring self-assessment, self-reliance, and self-evac skilz. WFR would be nice, but it's not necessary. WFA is adequate for this scenario. Self-rescue skilz, like belay-escape and lowering, are also essential to have mastered. Obviously, that last skillset is not taught in neither WFA nor WFR. What I was trying to get across in my first post and in my response to Displaced_Native is this: I believe that when an expedition company, outfitter, or a guide is taking a client into the alpine/backwoods and collecting payment for same, then that company/individual is largely responsible for the safety, health, and welfare of that client (assuming the client doesn't do something negligent/stoopid). If you accept that premise, then it logically follows that a greater level of study and mastery of the subject matter is required on the part of the outfitter/guide. That is why I believe that WFR is more geared to the "professional" outdoorsman-for-hire, and is overkill for the weekend warrior. Both of the protocols you mention above (highlighted) are taught rigorously in WFA as well, especially the spinal clearing. Therefore, in my opinion, WFA will give you just as credible a shot at self-evac as will WFR, and at only 20 to 30 percent of the time investment and a significant cost savings. Ergo, my earlier statement that WFA is sufficient for baseline proficiency for the weekend warrior, IMHO. WFA does not teach anything about emergency dental procedures, searches for Little Johnny, etc. Those are things that I consider not very likely that I will ever have to contend with in the alpine. For the record, I cleared Dane's spine with the knowledge I gained from repeated recertifications of WFA. He's walking around just fine, and climbing better than alot of us here. I've also reset a dislocated finger and a shoulder a few years back, again from what I learned at WFA. I regularly treat the numerous splinters, lacerations, contusions, and abrasions my kids come to me with during their day-to-day adventures. Finally even got to close one of my son's self-inflicted knife wounds with my Steri-Strips. That was fun! So I rest my case with respect to WFA vs. WFR for the weekend warrior's baseline proficiency standard. My $0.02 YMMV

Steve, I believe that you do not understand me correctly at all. Yes, baseline proficiency can be gleaned from the 16/24 hour WFA course. It covers a shitload of injuries that an outdoorsy person is likely to encounter and their management. Just about anything that can be treated in the field with a small FA kit, some sticks for splints, and a few functioning brain cells. But not every single scenario or contingency. For many of us here (the weekend warriors), the WFA is plenty of knowledge and will cover just about anything we're ever likely to see. That is what I call baseline proficiency. Your definition may vary, being a medic. Mine is aforestated. Of course serious things happen to weekend warriors. Fuck, read this account of Dane's 20-foot pro-less crater at Castle Rock. Is that "serious" enough for you? Was it handled with my definition of baseline proficiency? Read the thread and you be the judge. Regarding your comment about a new belayer, I see no sense in spending huge sums of money and time on something that ain't likely to ever happen or ever get fixed. Kinda like the way government solves problems... or not.

Why aren't people clamboring for more Honda control? What were the results of this guy's background check, huh? And what about the delaership that sold him the car?? We should sue them! And Home Depot, too!

I visibly winced at 1:28 in, when the blonde in the black outfit hit the floor in full splits. That just looked like it really hurt, even though she was in complete control of her body.

Baseline proficiency can be just as easily gleaned from WMI's 16 to 24-hour Wilderness First Aid (WFA, not WFR) course. Eighty hours is a huge commitment, and while I would agree with marcus that it's a lot of really great stuff, the WFR course is really geared towards those that would be owners of expedition companies, mountain guides, etc. whose daily line of work makes them responsible for their clients' health and welfare. The WFA class is good enough for the majority of us weekend warriors off on an alpine adventure or a hike through the Picketts. IMHO. Click on a course and read the syllabus... NOLS WMI courses I recertify my WFA every two years to stay current, just in case...