erik

this is going to end right now. i am sure all the above parties will agree with me.

http://www.cjad.com/content/cjad_news/article.asp?id=n091543A

very true. i will omit the personal gain. but limiting quota to public land so that a for profit operation can make a profit at the expense of the actual owner is b.s. for profit organizations should be the last ones in any permit grab and they should always allow non-guided not for profit groups and inviduals supercede their groups.

i think it is used to control the flood of water into the icicle, so that they may keep the temps down later in the year for fish. also prolly have something to do with the lworth drinking supply. but i dont really know.

removing the police and fees from recreation that is the only concern. i am out there to enjoy myself not be bothered by someone who could not become a real poice officer. less government involvement. this is a private activity, not one for the government to install ideals and rules into. guides and adventure travel companies do not count they are abusing the land for personal/financial gain. beck, please do not attempt to assert yourself as our repersentive. i do not want one. i dont need someone conveying my lifestyle to others who do not understand or participate in it. and top roping with politicians does nothing, it is a poor repersentation of the sport. have them lead some gear routes, have them climb a mtn, a road side crag is not a fair repersentation of climbing as a whole.

nope it ends 10/15 as well as fee camping and parking pass requirements

THEYVE BEEN GONE SINCE THE 1ST FREEZE

i guess my question is lost in my poor context. but who sets local ethics?

wheres the locals? who are they? how do you become one? what constitutes a local? do you have to live within a certain radius of the area? climb there a certain amount of days? put up routes? and what if there are multiple guidebooks? then who is the authority?

please be more clear(tho i need help on that too!!!) but your statement brought up these questions for me. i have always wondered this. no where in washington i can think of is there a strong "local" community for any crag. personally i think it is a statewide epidemic and i dont see it ever changing.

matt i think that the your second statement is prolly more ture then the 1st. i can only see this as becoming a increasing issue as the years pass. one would think that with the modern "clean" gear that we would be able to push our standards more. are crags just trash piles designed to train us for real climbing? or are they an end all? i dunno, but it is certainly disapointing when i see a bolted crack, wheter it takes rp's or a #5 camalot.

ANOTHER QUESTION THAT ARISES. WHAT IF THERE ARE NO REAL LOCALS TO A CLIMBING AREA? WHAT CONSTITUTES A LOCAL? CAN ONE ACHEVE LOCAL STATUS? WHAT IF LOCAL CLIMBERS DO NOT WANT TO BE CONSIDERED LOCAL? WHAT IF PEOPLE WHO CLAIM TO BE LOCAL ARE NOT? QUESTIONS!!!!

NOPE, THAT IS GREAT! BUT WHAT OF DEVIATING FROM THE ORIGINAL STYLE? I AM A SHITTY ROCK CLIMBER, BUT I DO NOT THINK THAT THE ROUTES DESERVED TO BE MODIFIED.

SLAPPY, PROLLY RIGHT, LIKE I SAIDI DONT KNOW THE NAMES OF MOST OF THE STUFF. PETE, IT IS ALL ABOUT FA'S AND THE RESPECTING THEM AS THAT. TO RECONIZE WHAT THE FA'ERS DID AND LEAVE IT AT THAT. SOMETIMES PEOPLE ARE BOLDERER THEN OTHERS SOMETIMES PEOPLES PERCEPTION OF DANGEROUS IS DIFFERENT THEN OTHERS, SOMETIMES PEOPLES ABILITY TO FERRET OUT GEAR IS DIFFERENT THEN OTHERS. I JUST THINK ONCE A PARTY HAS BEEN UP IT, THAT IS THAT. RESPECT IT.

I DONT KNOW THE NAMES OF THEM. ONE STARTS RIGHT OF JAZZY DOCUMENT WITH AN O/W THAT HAS BEEN BOLTED AND THERE IS A #3 CAMALOT PLACEMENT BELOW IT AND #4 CAM PLACEMENT ABOVE IT. EVEN WHEN YOU MOVE ONTO THE BLUNT ARETE YOU ARE STILL WITHIN A SAFE FALL OF YOUR GEAR. THEN THE SYSTEM HEADS UP, TO THE LEFT OF THE POPULAR SLAB CLIMB THAT IS .10A UP THERE. AND TOPS OUT THRU THE ROOF ON THE LEFT SIDE. ALL BOLTS CAN BE AVOIDED BY STAYING IN THE CRACKS.

but peter they do know about the old ones. i am not talking about most the routes i do, but in general. reading the bolted cracks thead spurred this one on. and what if the first ascentionist is able to free the line without hardware, but locals feel the need to place hardware. some routes on warrior wall come to mind.

thats what i am talking about. and minx, that has little to do with the discussion. i always have fun what i am doing.

TOO BAD MOST THE PEOPLE THAT LIVE HERE ARE ANNOYING!

Recently have been doing a fair amount of ground up adventure climbing. cleaning and trundling on lead where is needs it. digging placements out and features to help ascend. we do not scrub the lines or place anochors or leave webbing or any of that crap. my partner and i were chit chatting about this while our other one was leading and he was told by the local guidebook author that we were not doing new routes, but adventure climbing. granted we have climbed some great features, and some very cool. most of these routes are quite assecible to anyone who wants to walk a short jaunt up hill. do out routes not count because we do not rap clean them? or make our path obvious? is one required to force a route up an inobvious line, bolt an anchor before it is considered a route? an example that ws given was alot of the yoder routes in the icicle. he put them up in a similar style, just going up and climbing, not wasting time making it happy for everyone else. sometimes they were runout, sometimes they were hard. but now apprently they have gone back and started to make these routes "safe for the kids" renaming them and putting a new fa's name on the route. i think this is stupid. if a person climbs the formation or feature, in ground up style it is as valid if not more valid then a rehearsed and overly gardened route. ************************ NOTE ***************** this topic is meant for a discussion and is not intended to name anyone route, climbing location, climber, group of climbers, formation, moutain or crag. it has nothing to do with any route i have personally climbed. if you would like information on any route i have climbed, please email me or start another thread.

warrior wall upper eight mile buttress these two crags have a significatn amount of crack bolting. i was told that the bolts are placed for directionals. please see my new topic.

i certainly dont think dwhiner should be banned. but he should stick to topic where he has some knowledge. his opnion on sport climbing is jaded by the fact that he is ashamed of his climbing abilites and he sees these children climbing routes harder then he ever imagined. it is dad dwhiner has to resort to a pathetic form of fillabustering.

23 GRAND ALSO THE PRICE OF A CAR HAS LITTLE TO DO WITH IT NOW A DAYS. IT IS ALL ABOUT THE FINANCING ONE CAN GET.

The regenerative braking technology has been around for a long time, thats nothing new. I don't understand why more people don't buy the TDI VW's? They are so much more practical. A Co-worker drove his TDI from Seattle to Denver and got 57mpg averaging 78mph. Cost is less and you get more car for the money, can put a roof rack on and if you get the Jetta station wagon, a place to sleep. Does this car have a crap load of earth unfriendly batteries? The TDI's only need a battery to start the car and get about the same gas milage....