erik

really? have had for a year without any stretching issues personally. tho i did not fit them death tight. really good edging shoe and the best one any shoe company has ever made is the sportiva syncro. i cried when i found out they do not make them anymore!!! and i will be sad when mine die!

fit is the most important aspect of a shoe, so make sure you find one that fits right. sportiva cobra's are a decent sliiper that edges decent.

i refuse to talk about anything i ever climb again, as apprently it is purely ego driven. tho as usual i had fun.

schitzy it is a crag. name another crag you can drive your truck right up too in lworth or the rest of the state, i am interested as i am a lazy sack!

buy what fits your budget. low end quality cams are the forged friends then tech friends and then camalots i like to mix and match now a days.

I said I had to get back to work but I couldn't resist responding to this minor point that is off topic. Wasn't "loggers ledge" logged because the trees were keeping moss and general filth on the rock? Don't even Midway and Saber have both fixed pins and bolts on them? Weren't the cracks gardened out? Do the climbs that we enjoy today resemble the state in which Beckey and Schoening and thier frieinds found them? When they are leading Midway, how many of today's climbers care whether Fred, in 1954, climbed from the ground up or not? Things evolved from the 1950's, in case you hadn't noticed. People stopped pounding pins and began slipping in nuts. Of course the climbs are cleaner than when FB first hiked up there. Did I miss your point? and things continue to evolve.

distel cant go climbing tommorow. but the weather for index on any of the weather websites is usually about 99% wrong. and there are plenty of routes that stay dry well after a hard rain. sport and gear routes. it also dries relativly quickly as well, so dont discount index.

this is going to end right now. i am sure all the above parties will agree with me.

http://www.cjad.com/content/cjad_news/article.asp?id=n091543A

very true. i will omit the personal gain. but limiting quota to public land so that a for profit operation can make a profit at the expense of the actual owner is b.s. for profit organizations should be the last ones in any permit grab and they should always allow non-guided not for profit groups and inviduals supercede their groups.

i think it is used to control the flood of water into the icicle, so that they may keep the temps down later in the year for fish. also prolly have something to do with the lworth drinking supply. but i dont really know.

removing the police and fees from recreation that is the only concern. i am out there to enjoy myself not be bothered by someone who could not become a real poice officer. less government involvement. this is a private activity, not one for the government to install ideals and rules into. guides and adventure travel companies do not count they are abusing the land for personal/financial gain. beck, please do not attempt to assert yourself as our repersentive. i do not want one. i dont need someone conveying my lifestyle to others who do not understand or participate in it. and top roping with politicians does nothing, it is a poor repersentation of the sport. have them lead some gear routes, have them climb a mtn, a road side crag is not a fair repersentation of climbing as a whole.

nope it ends 10/15 as well as fee camping and parking pass requirements

THEYVE BEEN GONE SINCE THE 1ST FREEZE

i guess my question is lost in my poor context. but who sets local ethics?

wheres the locals? who are they? how do you become one? what constitutes a local? do you have to live within a certain radius of the area? climb there a certain amount of days? put up routes? and what if there are multiple guidebooks? then who is the authority?

please be more clear(tho i need help on that too!!!) but your statement brought up these questions for me. i have always wondered this. no where in washington i can think of is there a strong "local" community for any crag. personally i think it is a statewide epidemic and i dont see it ever changing.

matt i think that the your second statement is prolly more ture then the 1st. i can only see this as becoming a increasing issue as the years pass. one would think that with the modern "clean" gear that we would be able to push our standards more. are crags just trash piles designed to train us for real climbing? or are they an end all? i dunno, but it is certainly disapointing when i see a bolted crack, wheter it takes rp's or a #5 camalot.

ANOTHER QUESTION THAT ARISES. WHAT IF THERE ARE NO REAL LOCALS TO A CLIMBING AREA? WHAT CONSTITUTES A LOCAL? CAN ONE ACHEVE LOCAL STATUS? WHAT IF LOCAL CLIMBERS DO NOT WANT TO BE CONSIDERED LOCAL? WHAT IF PEOPLE WHO CLAIM TO BE LOCAL ARE NOT? QUESTIONS!!!!

NOPE, THAT IS GREAT! BUT WHAT OF DEVIATING FROM THE ORIGINAL STYLE? I AM A SHITTY ROCK CLIMBER, BUT I DO NOT THINK THAT THE ROUTES DESERVED TO BE MODIFIED.

SLAPPY, PROLLY RIGHT, LIKE I SAIDI DONT KNOW THE NAMES OF MOST OF THE STUFF. PETE, IT IS ALL ABOUT FA'S AND THE RESPECTING THEM AS THAT. TO RECONIZE WHAT THE FA'ERS DID AND LEAVE IT AT THAT. SOMETIMES PEOPLE ARE BOLDERER THEN OTHERS SOMETIMES PEOPLES PERCEPTION OF DANGEROUS IS DIFFERENT THEN OTHERS, SOMETIMES PEOPLES ABILITY TO FERRET OUT GEAR IS DIFFERENT THEN OTHERS. I JUST THINK ONCE A PARTY HAS BEEN UP IT, THAT IS THAT. RESPECT IT.

I DONT KNOW THE NAMES OF THEM. ONE STARTS RIGHT OF JAZZY DOCUMENT WITH AN O/W THAT HAS BEEN BOLTED AND THERE IS A #3 CAMALOT PLACEMENT BELOW IT AND #4 CAM PLACEMENT ABOVE IT. EVEN WHEN YOU MOVE ONTO THE BLUNT ARETE YOU ARE STILL WITHIN A SAFE FALL OF YOUR GEAR. THEN THE SYSTEM HEADS UP, TO THE LEFT OF THE POPULAR SLAB CLIMB THAT IS .10A UP THERE. AND TOPS OUT THRU THE ROOF ON THE LEFT SIDE. ALL BOLTS CAN BE AVOIDED BY STAYING IN THE CRACKS.

but peter they do know about the old ones. i am not talking about most the routes i do, but in general. reading the bolted cracks thead spurred this one on. and what if the first ascentionist is able to free the line without hardware, but locals feel the need to place hardware. some routes on warrior wall come to mind.