Alex

platic boots, keep your toes from refreezing again for the short term

I wholeheartedly agree! Deeping is WI5 if you lead it, and it isnt hooked out. Its especially heady if its cold and the ice is plating off onto your head. If you are hooking others placements, using their used screw holes, and taking the odd rest, it makes it much easier. I dont think its that unusual for strong climbers to TR 5s. At the beginning of any season, most ice climbers I know make it a point to TR a few days at the "practice areas" to build strength rapidly and get used to things again. When TRing, 4s get boring pretty quickly. Cracked, frankly the semantics of your argument make you look rediculous. Of course in ice climbing just as in rock climbing it's easier AFA strenuousness to not rest and not place pro. Not many people do this however in regular practice on either medium. Learning to place pro efficiently on steep ground is difficult, because as you correctly guess, if you sew it up you might tire more quickly. However, just like in rock climbing, a sewed up route gives the leader confidence to push another 20 feet, whereas no pro might make someone wig out. Ice climbing is like aid climbing, it is very mental. Ice climbing is also like rock climbing, in that the principles behind why you place pro are the same. Not because you expect to fall, but because you'd like to not hit the ground/your belayer/etc if you do. Whatever our deficiencies as climbers, few of us really want to die that badly as to leave things to chance every outing and not place pro at all. Ice especially, because its often deemed a more unpredictable medium, requires protection for the sake of protocol. As for Carls Berg, I've seen Dave M. hike this route in 5+/6 conditions with maybe one or two good screws. He was climbing safely, too. I'd say that took a lot more skill than TRing it, even if he did effectively solo it. I agree with 'bone. While alot of people here are not truly hiking 5s (myself included), if you go to an area where the season is consistent and you can get alot of days in, 5 becomes a fairly blasee rating. I met an 18 year old punk from Calgary one year at Rampart who was starting his second season on ice. He had just lead a notorious 6 that day. I asked him, envious, how it was that he was leading 6s at the start of his second year...after all, I (huff) had been climbing ice 15 years and was still trying to hike 5s. His answer was simple...It was December, but he had already had 30+ days on the ice that season. I would just forget the numbers and climb as much as possible and enjoy what you're doing!

I dont know if you meant to ask whether 80% of climbs are in the 4/5 range, but thats likely true in WA. I dont agree that ratings dont mean much in ice climbing, but they are much more difficult to nail down becuase the medium is so changable Ratings most often reflect a combination of strenuousness/exertion and protectability. Therefore, a WI3 is less strenuous and most likely better protected than a WI4. The best way to evluate whether you should try a route is to approach it, check it out, and decide then and there. The ratings at best give you some idea of what you might expect, in normal conditions (though there is no such thing as normal conditions). In many ways ice climbing is easier than rock climbing, but ice leading is much harder. The ability to evaluate a given route and get a feel for what ratings might mean for you comes from many seasons (typically) on ice, backing off alot, hopefully staying whole. Alex

how did you TR Salt n Pepper?... I didnt realize that was easily TRed. do you mean the Cable?

which location?

I can tell you from experience that that isnt much, actually...

thats better.

awesome

I am insulted that I didn't even make the top three!!! I'll have to send you to banned camp just for that!!

Here is an interesting, related thread. http://www.live-the-vision.com/wwwboard/messages/3756.html Alex

cbs, every few years. See pic of Jens climbing said waterfall in fat conditions in guidebook.

I too wondered how anyone could spend 4 days out there and not stumble into civilization etc, but with tiredness, a bit of halucinations, poor vis, and the inability to travel easily through deep snow I can see it. The guy made it out and in order to do so must have been pretty determined, crafty, and have a huckofa will to live. I'd ski with him,..right on! Alex

Just a few additional comments: Mid May is a good (and easy) time for the route, but is typically still "early season" ...i.e. White River road/campground is not yet open. A 20 deg bag should be fine. Bring a puffy jacket though, too. It is technically easy, yes. The crux of the route has always been the weather and logistics. That will depend entirely on snowpack. In a normal snow year, its probable that White River will not be open before Memorial Day weekend. Your approach options are significantly diminished if White River is not yet open when you come - Ipsut Creek is a longer approach and will require and extra day or two, in good weather, for the route. Some people take Mountain bikes and bike the White River road to get in to the campground even if the road is gated before Memorial Day weekend. If there is a > normal snowpack, I would suggest you bring snowshoes at least for the below-treeline work, and stash them in a convenient location, like Glacier Basin or something. For Lib Ridge, the tough part about it is that the weather is coming from the W or SW and you will not see it coming. Your most reliable indicators will be the lenticular and/or barometric pressure etc. If a lenticular builds, you may have only hours before your visibility is gone, depending on your current altitude. If you are at or below Thumb, its not too late to bail easily if the weather rolls in, however. I fled the mountain from Thumb once in early April and it was pretty easy to get down before the slopes became too loaded, but you have to commit to bailing (or not) right away if it snows significatly. Cell phones will depend on your provider, by my experience has not been good with cell reception on Rainier. Alex

I've seen it in a few times, in the late 90s I think. Have never climbed it though

You guys are way too subtle for my addled brain! OK, thanks Don and Fern! Alex

Relax. The skis do the work for you. Start cross slope in tele position. Now softly, take uphill ski and step into turn. (Its an offbalance movement.) During this you transition your body weight from - tele pos 40% uphill ski 60% downhill ski - step, shoulders square to fallline 50% 50% weight on each foot - skis flex and turn now you are again 60% downhill boot, 40% uphill boot, back into tele position crossing slope... After the first turn and once your momentum is going, use a subtle "jump turn" (its really just a hop, if the snow is light) to float the skis up and to the surface to ease through the turn easier. Find a rythm for the turns so that you control your speed by turning based on the incline of the slope. Trying to ski pow when the slope angle is too shallow to get you some good momentum is arduous and makes you fall and loose confidence. In fresh snow, pick a slope that is steeper than one you would choose if groomed or even tracked out. If the slope is already tracked out, choose the most untracked line to keep the snow consistent. You'll find you speed up noticably in tracked terrain, which isnt good for easy control. The toughest time I have is breakable crust, when the skis are very unpredictable through the step and turn as you are transitioning your weight. When I get into breakable crust or windslab, I try to go elsewhere

Thats pretty good!!

have anna fly you in, jump out of plane in slick suit with snowboard strapped to feet, take lots of movies for your kids, pop the chute, glide in for a perfect James Bond landing in soft freshies....release chute as you surf they great white wave down to town..?

Alot of really good trip ideas you have there, Lowell... Alex

When I was in the area in 1998, I had a pair of Koflch Arctis boots while most of my friends had the custom foam intuition liners. Without a doubt, the Intuition liners are warmer. The Koflachs are fine down to around -30C with some extra sole insulation if you need it, but I would go intuition liners. very good advice, that Alex

Arent they just the updated teched out version of the Freney? I believe the old Freney was discontinued and replaced by this boot. If so they are the Scarpa alpine mixed climbing boot that competes with several boots of the Sportiva line. I (and several others here) have the older (blue) Freneys and really like them for almost everything cascades and ice/mixed in the Cascades and Rockies. They climb easy rock really well (actually) and can take a good amount of abuse. I used them for everything from Ptarmigan Trav, Triple Cs, to ice climbing on days warmer than -10C. The Scarpa last is wider and more comfortable if you find your foot is too wide for Sportivas.

I've only done that route once, but I recall it being about 75(+?) m from base to the closest tree. My partner simulclimbed about half the pitch. There is a belay about 50m up on the left hand side in the rock, off pins I think

you there with send bot? Hope you guys dont freeze too bad, hey at least its not melting

Don, can I link to this site from www.wastateice.net on the links page? Alex

My wife and I headed over to Austria to hang with the folks and also do some ice climbing. On the 26th Dec we rented a car and headed out on our little adventure, using ice climbing topos and info gleaned from http://www.bergsteigen.at (well done). The first day we went to the Blue Box in the OetscherGraeben. It was a really neat place, but nothing significant had formed. In what would reflect every climb we did this trip, the ice was too thin to protect, usually less than 10cm thick. As such, only lower-angle stuff had formed well enough, so we ended up doing a 30m WI3, and some ice bouldering. It is easy to imagine that with a little more cold (it is still early season after Christmas in Austria), Deep Blue would be an awesome route. That evening we spent some time in Maria Zell, then found a cheap place to sleep in Katschberg. The second day we went down into Steiermark and climbed a route named Atlantis, at easy WI4. The Austrians have a funny idea of what WI 3 and WI 4 are, the pitches we did were no harder than 2, and even the top "WI4" pitch was probably 3. The "WI4+" variation we TRed at easy 4. Still, a fun day with temps around -12C (the coldest temps of the trip). Day 3 we left Bad Aussee and went over to Hallstatt to look at the SchleierFall, perhaps one of the largest routes in Austria. It is very big (5 full length pitches?!?!) but the middle crux section was not in...we headed up the valley and ended up climbing through this really rad ice cave, up through a small hole in the limestone ice cave for about half a pitch. Then we headed over and TR'ed a very difficult and wet 45m 5/5+. It was brutal and scary, super exposed over a raging high waterfall!! The 6/6+ across the valley looked absolutely sick! You had to rap in and climb out, or else we would have tried it too...we were not convinced we could actually get out on that one..! Of course Hallstatt is one of the most beautiful towns in Austria, with the Dachstein in the background, so certainly not a wasted day! Still warm though. The next day was also warm, with drizzle. We left Bad Aussee and headed over to the Woerschacher Waterfall, which we had seen from the road the day before and it had looked awesome. It looked alot longer from the road than it turned out to be. Again, thin thin thin ice was the rule, with the only servicable screw on a 50M WI3 pitch found just below the crux in a large mushroom of ice. Easy but heady climbing. The second pitch was falling apart even while we approached, and while it was only WI3, I backed off as I didnt think it would support body weight. The next day we drove down to the Maltatal in Carinthia, which was a nice scenic drive. The Maltatal holds one of the two high concentration ice climbing areas in Austria (the other being the Rudolfshuette), with perhaps 30 routes in the valley. Again warm temps (+2 even at night) dashed our hopes, and we ended up driving up the whole valley and seeing one route in. Ironically, as we were contemplating the one route in the upper valley, a snowplow and snowblower came by and told us to immediately turn the car around, the av danger was too high and they were closing the road. Discouraged by the medioche climbing and warm temps, with nothing forcast that would give us any hope of finding better conditions in all of Europe (Switerland, Germany, Italy et al were all experiencing mild temps, from -2 to +10C - the Foehn was in full effect) we decided that rather than blow money on a few pitches of (while fun, not particularly stellar) WI3, we would save our cash and head back to Vienna. Back we went, and spent a last few leisure days before returning stateside. Notes: * Its very annoying that no one ice guide exists for Austria. At best, you can find "Select" guides to each province if you are very lucky and visit many of the small climbing shops in Vienna, but our information we got from the Internet was most of the time equal or better than that in the guide books. We found that several days navigating http://www.bergsteigen.at was the most useful way of getting route info, besides talking to the local ice climbers (of which there are very few!) * Ratings in Austria are soft. Keep this in mind when selecting objectives. I selected alot of WI4 routes (mostly 3, with a pitch or two of 4), as I would for the Rockies, but these turned out to be mostly cruising/soloing terrain (even the "WI4" pitches with the thin ice conditions) and not particularly challenging. In retrospect I should have searched for options around half to a full grade harder for my wife and myself. For those used to Canadian Rockies ratings, the ratings in Austria are typically at least half a grade easier. The only exception are perhaps the most recent "grand cours" routes, such as "Maenner Ohne Nerven" and "Mordor". * There is alot of climbing, but the season is short - reliable ice outside of the "alpine" routes only from mid Jan to mid Feb. * If you are going for a longer trip, take AT skis. Limiting yourself to the lowland routes is ok for a week, but would be limiting for 2 or 3. * Cheap places can be had pretty easily, once you get into the swing of things. Do not rely on youth hostels, they are chock full during ski season. Instead, you will have to get by on "B&Bs". In Austria many people speak passable English, so even if you do not speak German its possible to get by. * There are really no handy climbing shops like North Americans are used to, outside of Vienna and perhaps true mountain climbing towns like Cham. Bring spare parts with you (picks, files, a spare set of crampons, etc) and do not expect to be able to maintain eq in a timely manner unless in one of these towns. I see its been cold around here! Can't wait to climb locally again!