jon

You guys have it all wrong. Go to school, get a good job that you like and pays.........................with a boss that climbs!

it was meant to be a joke.

Hey wait a minute here. Hey Rodchester, how do you know there are popups on porn sites? Also, aren't you guys supposed to be working instead of surfing this site all day long? Just checking. Have fun.

I’m sorry I’m pissing everyone off! I didn’t have any bad intensions, it was only for the day, I'm removing it so there won’t be any more tears. I'll be honest and say I don't really like them either, but it was a whole lot easier for me to do at midnight than incorporate the ad into the page. They aren't paying us to put it there either, I did it as a nice gesture in hopes that if this went well they could host other well known climbers as well. Also, one of the guys in the club has offered to help us with the website. On a lighter side, I had to go to a porn site to look at the coding for how to do a popup. Sorry again, Jon

Oh shit I'm going to piss people off. First I put a popup on the front page and now I'm closing this thread. Here is my reasoning though, and another person suggested this to me. Instead of continuing putting all the information for all of Washington ice in one thread, why not put it into a thread for each area. That was kind of the idea from the beginning but we never took charge. So here is my idea. The next person who posts for an area start a thread for that area in the correct region in the proper Route Reports Forum. There is already one for Banks Lake in the Central Washington Forum. One could argue that having it all in one place is better, but then you are stuck skimming through all the reports to find the ones you are interested in. I leave this thread open for another day in case there are some serious objections. Jon

Nolanr- She is a participant in the Climb for Clean Air. We have been contacted by the Lung Association hoping they could send their participants to this site so they could ask questions and get info. I hope everyone can be supportive of these people as I’m sure most of them have never climbed before. From what I understand they will be doing a bunch of training climbs building up to Rainier. Just remember we all started somewhere and these people are doing it for an excellent cause. Joy- It sounds like you are taking the necessary first steps and it does get boring doing the whole running/hiking with a pack thing. If you don’t feel like you are making progress you should look at whether you are exercising at a hard enough intensity and whether you are giving your body enough rest. Sometimes backing off a little and letting your body recuperate will actually help you progress quicker or get over a hump. Mixing up your routine can help as well. Simple things like doing different trails on Tiger or going at different times in the day can remove any tedium. I often hit Tiger after work descending in the dark, or the opposite going up in the morning while it is getting light out. You also can try Mt. Si and Granite Mt., which are a little longer and more rewarding. Luckily, well depending on how you look at it, because of the lack of snowfall trails to higher areas will be open earlier. I’d take advantage of this and do your hikes and climbs higher than the top of Tiger, which is 3k. For something like Rainier, there are some additional things you should do as well which goes along with what nolanr stated. One important thing is to find out how your body does at altitude because everyone is different. You could be in incredible shape but your body could just hate being at altitude. This was something that I found out when I first started climbing. I was 16, invincible, and in incredible shape from playing year round soccer and hiking and climbing a lot. I found out quickly though at high altitude I got really sick. Over the years I learned how to pace myself, eat better, rest more often, and pack lighter. Learning how quickly your body acclimatizes will help you determine how fast to go as well as let you know what it feels like to be working hard that high up. The best way to find this out is to hike up to Camp Muir, which is at 10,000 feet by Paradise. This time of year the slopes around Paradise can be a little treacherous in places so you should go with someone who has some climbing experience. Getting accustomed to hiking in the snow is a good idea as well because it takes more out of you are requires a little more attentiveness in case you slip. I’d check out Courteney’s pages, she has some excellent stuff there. Good luck and hang in there! -Jon intensity@cascadeclimbers.com

Is that what happens when you don't get any action?

Are you sure the damage wasn't from last night?

http://www.barrabes.com/barrabes/homedept.asp

Hi All- The idea of having a thread for each area/mountain is something that I've been wanting to do but haven't found the time to do it, so I thank DPP for getting my butt in gear. Originally this thread was posted in the climbers board, but I created a central/eastern washington forum and moved it here.

I heard on the news tonight they have two suspects in the murder, apparently both teenagers. Is execution by ice axe still legal in New Hampshire. What the hell is wrong with kids these days? Very sad. http://www.king5.com/national/storydetail.html?StoryID=14123

One more thing in my slightly inebriated state. For those of you who are bikers Performance is a really good deal. If you buy lots of bike stuff or go through Cytomax/Gu like crazy, become members there. It is sort of like REI, you pay $20 a year there and you get $10 back for every $100 buy, but you get it back after every $100 instead of the end of the year like REI. So for those who aren’t math geniuses you spend $200 and break even. The best thing is they match any advertised price, so you can get really sweet deals without having to do mail order from some strange company. I’ve saved a ton of money on parts there. Plus members get special deals on stuff. They pretty frequently have Cytomax for $25 per large can for members, so your make you $20 back pretty quick. [This message has been edited by jon (edited 02-17-2001).] [This message has been edited by jon (edited 02-17-2001).]

Performance Bike Shop (they have a Bellevue store by M$, not sure where else, but on web at http://www.performancebike.com )hasCytomax 4.5 lbs for $30 and 24 box of GU for $17(?). I think the sale ends 2/24. [This message has been edited by jon (edited 02-17-2001).]

I've got the OR Baker Mitts and I love them. I bought these after I lost one of my Modular Mitts. Mine have the single fleece liner and I rarely take them out. Depending on the temperature I'll wear them with a variety of different weight fingered liner gloves, this way when you deglove your hands still stay warm but have close to the same dexterity of bare hands. The palms on mine have held up incredibly well. The kiddie leashes are cool to for skiiing, well actually anything, because you don't drop or have to hold your gloves. The waterproofness is excellent and the breathability is fine (I sweat profusely). These are a great all-around glove. I’m looking for some fingered gloves too though, and “was” going to buy the Altitudes, but I guess not.

I think this was one of the first climbing websites I visited back in 95 when I first started using the Internet. His pictures were used on my desktop on a constant basis. Pretty killer.

Microsoft Enterprise Software. Always Ready. Always Reliable.

This has been a very interesting conversation to follow and has raised some pretty good questions, and I hope we can remain fairly civil in our postings. Everybody has their own opinion here on what they believe should be done in regards to Lowell’s question, I just hope we can avoid the flame wars that have manifested in the last couple of days. In a forum like this I think it is pretty easy to misinterpret what people are saying (in Dan’s and Alex’s case, sorry that happened guys), and in something as informal as this, where for the most part we haven’t met each other and can associate a face to a name, things can get out of hand quickly even though everyone has good intentions. I think between all of us we can accomplish a lot as far preserving and building on the legacy of Fred Beckey’s incredible work. We are starting to make some headway here and I can feel the excitement, but I don’t feel we need to rush into anything to quickly, and certainly not get at each other’s throats. So here are my thought that have brewing the past couple weeks from this thread, as well as other thoughts that have come about since the introduction of the website in October. I just spent a few minutes analyzing our server stats from January and they are pretty incredible. For January alone we had 3500 visitors (accuracy is questionable, dhcp, same people using multiple clients, bots, etc.) and served over 38,000 non-cgi based pages. If you include the cgi generated BBS pages we are talking over 100,000 easily. As of now we have approximately 450 visitors a day and 325 registered users. Those are some pretty amazing numbers all things considered, and in my mind really signify the need for such a local resource. I don’t think there can be a bigger compliment than that for the time Tim, myself, and others have put into this thing. It also means though that we have a responsibility to keep this thing going, build upon the foundation that we have built, and ensure this thing doesn’t die and goes in the right direction. So I guess the question begs to be asked in the spirit of Lowell’s original question, where do we go from here as far as cataloging new routes, as well as what the future of this site should be? Reading the thread in conjunction with a few emails that have flown back and forth from various people it appears there are some varying views on the grandeur and approach of such an endeavor. There has been talk of an annual journal to supplement/complement a web based journal/database, a review committee consisting of seasoned cascade hardmen, and the support infrastructure of lawyers, publishers, etc, and young enthusiastic tech geeks like myself to write code and maintain the thing. I think these are all good ideas, but as I eluded to earlier I don’t see a reason to rush such a thing. Now don’t get me wrong, I do believe we should do such a thing in some form, but it certainly won’t hurt to take our time, make sure we do it right, and make sure we can come to a general consensus on what it is and how we will support it. Also we need to make sure what we do is beneficial to ALL climbers and the areas being used. One thing I think that needs to be avoided at all costs is this group of dedicated individuals becoming a climbing club or click, where to be involved you have to have a extensive resume of grade V’s, do one finger pull ups, drink a 40 oz upside down and flash .13c while covered in tar and feathers to be initiated. In such an instance it really defeats the purpose of having something in the public domain, which leads to next question. What does the future behold for cascadeclimbers.com? I think Alex raised a very good point in an email, asking who will be running this thing five years down the road. I’d like to say I’ll still be involved, but I’d be ignorant to say I would be for sure. That said, I want to ensure this thing is here in the long run whether Tim and I are here or not; it would be such a waste if it wasn’t. Since the idea of this site popped in my head while in the North Cascades this summer with Tim, we both have had different and ever changing visions of what we should do, try to do, and what it should ultimately become. One of my original was to create something that is self supporting, not relying on the contributors/maintainers to pay it’s way. I don’t really have a definitive answer on how to do that, but it is something to consider when you start talking large databases, lots of traffic, and high availability, among other things that have been discussed in the thread. For the time being though the hosting costs are so minimal I’m not concerned about it. Another thing I’m still pondering is how we can advocate proper and safe usage of our wilderness, and contribute to maintaining our climbing areas, protecting them from being taken away. This would include some way of raising money to help maintain areas like Little Si, 38 and FC, as well as supporting players like the Access Fund and the North Cascades Conservation Council in their dealing. I personally think we owe it to the groups and the areas to do this. So what is the next step? Obviously we have a group of individuals (Lowell, Alex, Ray, Tim, myself, the retired Mike Adamson, Michael, John Sharp, Daryl, Rodchester, Loren (are you in?), and possibly Dave Burdick?) who care about this are willing to work together and get this rolling, and obviously anyone else is welcome just give a shout out. I think it would be great for some of us to gather, preferably in the presence of beer, and discuss the matters before us. I’ll leave it up to the next person for time and place, but I would suggest in the next couple of weeks and somewhere in the Bellevue area so it is central to everyone. I’m really excited what the coming months have in store for us. The seems to be a lot of enthusiasm within the group and hopefully in the next few weeks the route reporting database will be ready to play around with, among other fun things we’ve been secretly working on in Skunk workz. Tired, need sleep. One more thing, bring on the f#%&ing snow. -Jon intensity@cascadeclimbers.com P.S. Rumor has it people are tired of the pictures on the main page. Send us you picts for crying out loud. [This message has been edited by jon (edited 02-02-2001).]

arr, if you don't need a spoon to drink it, it's not a real beer

you mean the one of you naked jumping in the fountain?

From what I've read there is the way of avoiding getting a ticket in the first place, and even if you do, how to get out of it. This a link to an article by Scott Silver at the North Cascades Conservation Council, formed by I believe Harvey Manning. http://www.halcyon.com/rdpayne/nccc-news-0200.html#6 Another thing I've found is from Free our Forests, a notice of exemption. Apparently if you are parked at a trailhead for anything besides recreation, you don't have to pay the fee. http://www.freeourforests.org/COE.html -Jon

I’m against the fee demo/trail fee program because it is so fundamentally flawed, not because I’m cheap. I could care less about $25 or whatever they charge for the year, because what I get in return being in the mountains I couldn’t put a price on. But I refuse to pay because out of principal. I’ve done a lot of reading on this subject, and hopefully in the future may be able to provide a column on the site with a collection of links to articles relating to these types of issue. One interesting site I have found is http://www.wildwilderness.org, who’s primary objective is to fight the fee demo program. It’s not the prettiest website in the world, and many of the articles are pretty sided, but nonetheless there is some very interesting information and opinions. The guy behind this, Scott Silver of Bend, OR, is a retired chemist and does this full time. You may recognize his name because he was kicked off the Wilderness Bolting committee, compliments of REI. Him and REI have a little history; he has done several protests at their stores because they are members of the ARC. What is the ARC you ask? The American Recreation Coalition. You go to their website and look at who are members and you will find snowmobile manufactures, resort companies, and amusement park companies just to name a few. The ARC is the one responsible for fee demo by pushing money in front of our greedy congressional representatives so that these companies can gain access to public land for their own profit. This appears to be a complicated plot between the ARC and Congress, but the ultimate goal is to gain access to any land their hearts desire so they can build plush resorts at the cost of the environment. What really baffles me is how all of this is happening? Last I heard there was this agency in government that was supposed to protect our environment. I also don’t understand why the forest service PAYS companies to log its land. Who is the idiot behind this one, have they gone to Home Depot and looked at the cost of wood? Do they wonder why an oak cabinet costs $500 at Ikea; it’s not the $1/hour they are paying the little kid in Taiwan to build it. I also don’t understand why the money goes into the General Fund and not the Forest Service itself. I thought the whole idea was to raise money because of budget cuts. I think the hypocrisy behind trail fees is in a way similar to what mountain bikers are facing. It didn’t really strike me until I was driving to Tiger Mountain for a ride this summer, looking outside the window to see mountain upon mountain along 18 wiped bare of its trees, thinking “I’m not allowed to ride certain trails because I’m damaging the environment!?” There are obviously a lot of things going on here, and I’m not going to preach anymore. I’m pretty sure most of you are aware of what is going on. Question is what as individuals and a group can we do about this? The reality is that we will have a new president soon, who judging from his past environmental record, didn’t run for president to save the whales. There are also some new faces in Congress, and considering the 50/50 power split, I could only imagine that people like the ARC will shove more money into these peoples faces to have their way. I know I’m going to be keeping a close eye on what are congress is up to, and probably will send more than my share of mail to our representatives. If you have any interesting links to articles about the fee demo or anything similar, please send them to me and in time will put online a compiled list. Jon intensity@cascadeclimbers.com P.S Maybe the new singer for Rage Against the Machine will be an avid climber and will spit some lyrics about trail fees.

Ade- You're lucky I do research for a living, I found these first try. The University of Washington has all three journals that you mentioned. The UW library page is http://www.lib.washington.edu My assumption is that you cannot check these out, so bring lots of change or buy a copy card. Here are the links to the three: http://catalog.lib.washington.edu/search/t?SEARCH=Canadian+Alpine+Journal+ http://catalog.lib.washington.edu/search/t?SEARCH=Alpine+Journal+ http://catalog.lib.washington.edu/search/t?SEARCH=American+Alpine+Journal+ -Jon

I don’t know crap about business (though I took some economics in college) but here is my guess, which is probably wrong. The Euro companies are either raising the price for the US or the resellers are raising it themselves. It’s not like computers or TVs where everyone will buy one if the price is right. Whatever the case may be, there is a limited market for climbing gear like ice axes in the US. They could sell the Euro stuff at the Euro prices, and everyone would buy Euro gear because most likely the American manufacturers would not be able to match the price. But unlike the supply/demand graphs those econ guys use, the lower price won’t sell many more axes, because you have already reached market saturation. So why not sell the Euro stuff at the same price as the American stuff? Either way you’re selling the same amount of axes, only your make a lot more dinero.

Hey yall- I'm planning a trip to Mexico for a week to climb a couple of the volcanos, probably in February. I was thinking of doing Popo first, and attempting the first tyrolean across the crater rim. Anyone interested? -Jon http://www.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/americas/12/18/mexico.volcano.02.ap/index.html