el jefe

selkirk's question is a good one. if you fell because you botched the sequence, then just pull the rope and try again. i'll just add that in the switch from toprope to redpoint attempts there is usually new information that needs to be assimilated (e.g., hard clip). a good tip is to get the finish really dialed even if it isn't the hardest part of the route. once you get through the cruxes you still need to seal the deal.

pope just don't like them bolts, pete. simple, unreasoning prejudice and closed-mndedness. climbing has to stay the way he says because that's what ethics is. ethics is what pope says. and raindawg. none of the rest of us are authorized to think about any of this because they say so. got it?

tvash definitely nails it re: gyms are greener. much smaller carbon footprint for me to hop on my bicycle and cruise down to the portland rock gym with harness and shoes and spend the day climbing than to crank up the gasoline-powered vehicle and head out to beacon. and all those widgets and cams i need to climb at beacon? they require energy be consumed in order for them to be manufactured. the carbon footprint of the sporto with his 12 quickdraws is undoubtedly smaller than that of the tradster with his triple sets of bd cams, etc, plus the quickdraws. the alpinist adds high-tech clothing, ice gear, etc to the equation. all of which points up the absurdity of the "leave no trace ethic" in the first place. if you really want to leave no trace, then you'll just stay at home. i don't want to stay at home, so that means i've decided that i'm going to leave a trace. humans alter their environment, that's what they do (this much should be obvious, especially to an archeologist such as raindawg). it isn't possible to not do what you were designed to do. "leaving no trace" isn't possible for us. if we are going climbing, then we are going to leave a trace. quoting the holy scripture of the 1973 chouniard catalogue or religious leaders like reinhold messner won't change this fact about human activity.

i guess i have to agree with you, off white. checat shares the raindawg bolt phobia/psychosis, but isn't a dick about it. the removable bolts deal just sounds silly.

Prior to this post and the one you made immediately after, I thought you were just a harmless, fun guy with a big mouth. Now I think you're either ignorant or a real prick. Whether Bachar intended it (and I assume he did), the statement made by his solo of Father Figure, as interpreted by most, was that the traditional approach to climbing is superior. One could climb hard numbers, in more control and with greater safety by investing the time to learn the ground-up approach. Bachar was well beyond his prime at this point and yet he made child's play out of Cosgrove's route, making every move static. This was a demonstration of excellence, an inspiration and example of what's possible when climbers are willing to focus their efforts instead of taking the most expedient, most convenient way, wilderness be damned. The route, BTW, is short and includes maybe only four bolts. Would have made for an excellent top-rope climb and provided enjoyment equal to what the sport version offers. I was certainly amazed by Bachar's solo ascents. Who wasn't? More impressive to me is that he resisted rap bolting and sport climbing, in an attempt to preserve what was great about American rock climbing and avoid the eventual and predictable grid bolting we see today. In retrospect, he sacrificed his professional career by choosing to do the right thing. blahblahblahblah

checat = another raindawg. just what this site needs.

awesome trip!

No haranguing required, pretty much everyone is already in the other camp. Personally, I'm not trying to sway a soul, just pointing out how powerful the self-reinforcing group-think of the vast majority really is. Sort of like trying to convince commercial fishermen we might be overfishing the resource. And again, for me it boils down to that 'climbing' vs. 'adventure climbing' deal. if you aren't "trying to sway a soul". then what reason is there for you to point out "the self reinforcing group-think"? i mean, if you aren't attempting to achieve some sort of dialogue, then are you just being a dick? seems to me if you didn't really care what people think, then you wouldn't bother posting in a thread like this so the fact that you do post means you are just being ornery, as my dear old mom would have put it. simply put: what's your motivation for talking to people if you aren't trying to have a conversation in the first place?

Wow, it's Jesus Christ incarnate. Don't shoot the messenger, everyone, he's just telling us the TRUTH! It's up to us to choose between good and evil. So do your converts stay at your Guyanan plantation full time or part time? Scared of IDEAS??? Reject them if you want! You act as if you're being forced to accept them. Don't even want to read this stuff because it's just so darn annoying????? Easy solution! You see the name "Raindawg" attached to the post...scroll on by! buh by! the angry little man has spoken.

this pretty much nails it. if raindawg were really interested in changing minds or getting people to think seriously about his ideas, he'd adopt a different tactic. getting up on the podium and self-righteously haranguing everyone, however, is probably the best way to drive everyone onto the other camp.

he would say "hey look. I can pink point anything"! You should research the history behind this climb: father figure at joshua tree. scott cosgrove route. bachar worked it, redpointed it, then soloed it after getting it dialed. straightup sporto method to get to the soloing bit.

oh, ouch! super doucheBag is so super touchy! did i say something that offended your so very sensitive feelings? such thin skin for a douchebag!

you in bed with a woman? now that is amusing. this just gets to be more fun all the time!

You know neither my parents nor my "spiritual teachers" and if you did, you would know that their only disappointment would be that I waste my time responding to the likes of you. wash day at the clock factory -- one of my favorites!

in the era of the giants when you bestrode the earth with your seven league boots and forearms like popeye. them were the days, i tell ye. climbers today got no balls and is weak as kittens. bolts sap a man's strength, make him into a womanish creature and a pitiable sight. the whole world should just give up climbing and line up to watch the mighty JosephH and the indomitable Raindawg talk us to death with their endless gobbledy-gook and senile confabulations...

super B = super Butthead = super doucheBag i'm having fun with it. i expect you're the kind of doucheBag lots of people find amusing

superB = super Butthead

Had climbing been of interest, the last thing thing Miles would have been is a sport climber and the venue he'd least have been interested in would be a gym - Miles was all about risking. And the mere idea that there is anything avante garde about the riskless entertainment climbing the suburban hordes have glommed onto is just the sort of self-fulfilling delusion that attracts them in the first place. Full Heinous Cling (ground up): Go Pat! hey phillip, this is clearly the best post in this entire thread!

pm sent

pm sent

most of these hard core antibolt dipshits don't even climb anymore so why does anyone care what they think?

troll

awesome tr and photos, off white! the best possible response to raindawg's puerile whining.

this story makes me feel queasy...

listen up, people, the king of all gumbies is speaking here!