JosephH

So long as the duct tape on the rope will pull through the bieners without catching too much it's probably still fine.

With the rope in a pack and the grigri it really isn't much of a clusterfuck at all. The YRS method with all the knots definitely was, but once you get either technique down it all goes pretty clean, straightforward, and fast (given there are no belays). I can climb the pitches twice (lead and clean) faster alone than with a partner. I will say though that, inspite of doing it for 30 years, it consistently still scares me pissless for the first half hour (or two pitches) of each climb at the beginning of each season, but after that it just gets utterly sublime and dreamy. Whenever the last full moon was I ended going out to Beacon late, doing four pitches and finishing up the route and two full raps by its light. Had the place to myself and it was just so still and lit up, yet alive with all sorts of beasts fluttering about and noises that I had to hang at the top rap station for quite a while to take it all in. I like climbing with partners, but it's a whole other dimension for me and I can't imagine my climbing experience without these quiet and wholly self-reliant sessions in the mix on a semi-regular basis. Not looking forward to the prospect of moving into the gym for the winter...

I'm with Dru on this one... I can only speak for myself, but I either roped solo or free solo; in general, I don't allow for any middle ground as you are introducing both ambiguity and uncertainty I'm not comfortable with. What if you get into the middle of it and can't deal but there is no pro to be had? At what point in the possibly sudden sketchfest do you whip out your self belay system? You make a lot of assumptions about life in general if you leave on an unknown free solo with the idea that you'll have the judgment, calm, and possibility of protection if you start to sketch - too many for me, ambiguities and assumptions like those scare me worse than the free solo generally. There is also the lingering trade-off question of: would I better off and safer if I just kept free soloing or if I get out the gear - hey, who knows, you might "lose your nerve" just because you have the gear and try to whip it out at a time when you would have been way, way better off to keep on moving. Dean Potter does this on his mixed solos, but he knows when, what, why, where, and how to use that rope before he leaves the ground on those routes. For me, if I know the route I know whether to free or rope. If I don't know the route and I can't tell from looking at it and I don't get the "right" smell or feeling about it all I rope up - the only time I end up in the in-between state is when I've been "caught" and that has never been a good feeling or a good day (except living through it)...

You most likely would never be bothering anyone on the two lines left of Windsurfer out at Beacon.

I did a roped solo aid run up "Free For Some" out at Beacon a couple of weeks ago when I forgot things I needed to roped solo free climb (like my shoes, grigri, pack, etc.) - it was actually a lot of fun. Pipeline or the two lines immediately left of Windsurfer would fit the bill, as well. I suspect most of Broughton would be fine and Bill Coe could probably speak to Rocky Butte.

Mattp, Ok, you got me - I should have said "Direct as always, BUT pretty much spot on...". Hey, this is Dru we're talking about, a little sensitivity please...

Where do you want them sent...?

Dru, Direct as always, and pretty much spot on...

Alpinfox, Yeah, it will. It's a trade-off between the rope getting away from you from the weight or tying off pro every now and then. I frankly don't tie off very often as I mind the rope pretty close. I also feel pretty confident in the pro I place and typically am not concerned about the first piece blowing for that reason as the next will do its job. When I am concerned about it I throw in two pieces in the same place or in close proximity and only clove hitch the top one. I've taken falls in this situation/configuration and it hasn't been a problem, though one should never say never - but again, like so much of trad leading, it's all about constant monitoring and occasional compromises (such as deciding whether to place pro at a lousy spot or climbing on hoping for better...).

BlakeJ, I was responding to the aspect of your question relative to "short sections". As others have stated you can sling yourself with protection through individual moves, but my comments were relative to getting all geared up for a regular roped solo versus just free soloing. I've been rope soloing regularly for 30 years or so (did several pitches of it yesterday out at Beacon) and had always used a method called the Yosemite Roped Solo technique (YRS) which I won't go into since this summer my friend Bud "Arturo" Smith convinced me to just use a small pack for the rope and a grigri. He's right, it is somewhat simpler and works fine. 1) Stack the rope in a small backpack 2) Tie a figure 8 in the end coming out of the backpack and a knot in the other end. 3) Clip the figure 8 to a screamer on an solid upward pull anchor (with lockers on both sides of the screamer) 4) put the rope on the grigri and the grigri on your harnesses belay ring so both rope ends face downward. (IMPORTANT: make sure the rope from the anchor is on the "climber" picture side of the grigri) 5) Climb normally reaching up and throwing more rope out of the pack as you go and be aware that at a certain distance the weight of the hanging rope can cause rope to start running through the grigri on its own pooling down around the anchor - clove hitch to a piece of pro about every 30-40' feet to stop this. 6) When you get to the end of your pitch (or the rope) tie a figure 8 into the rope and set it up on the anchor, leave the pack, rap the rope, teardown the first anchor and remove the figure 8, clean the pitch, restack the rope in the pack. 7) Repeat. Be aware there is a plethora of thought and debate around the use of grigris (regular and modified) for roped soloing; ditto for using clove hitches or other knots for backup while using this technique. I'm sure if you punch "roped solo" and "gri gri" into google or on this site you'd get plenty of info. I've done about 20 or 30 multi-pitch roped solos since the start of summer this way (with an unmodified grigri and no backup knot), taken falls, and with careful management it's all quite fine. But back to the original question, I probably would just free solo through short sections of approach / descent versus gearing up for the full roped solo deal - but, again, free soloing is dead serious business and I don't encourage anyone to do. It is an individual decision and I make no judgment of those that indulge or abstain.

I've never heard of such an event either. And given who got there first I definitely don't mind sharing Beacon with the falcons. Climbing without them (or bears) about and around wouldn't be nearly as interesting. I'm available if the biologists need any assistance out there and can be available during the week with a bit of notice.

Probably would just make the call for either free solo or roped solo and act accordingly as opposed to trying to go into some sort of mixed mode. In free solo mode I make myself safe by staying calm, focused, and deliberate. I'd suggest you do some roped soloing and digest that for awhile before doing even easy free solos and ease your way into total self-reliance.

If I were starting out all over again now I'd get: One full set of comparable Metolius or Alien cams All four Hybrid Aliens Brass and aluminum HB offset stoppers (these are the absolute best) One set of Metolius Curves or Old DMM Wallnuts (fatter than the new ones) One Set of Ball nuts

Jake and Chuck, Either of you guys climb with Jim Tangen-Foster over in Moscow, he was over that way for years?

rbw1966, You are a badass...! Nomad, jump on that offer - you're unlikely to get another...

This thread is drifting perilously close to drying up... So let's guess...: How many "climbers" are there today in the US and in the world? How many fewer "climbers" would there be if there weren't bolt ladders (safe climbs done only with draws) up all over? How many fewer "climbers" would there be if climbing couldn't be subdued into being "safe"? How many fewer access issues would there be if climbing hadn't become "safe"? You want to talk brass tacks about bolting? The whole point of climbing was escaping the crowds, learning new skills (pro), and learning how to manage risk. Now the suburban hordes and their associated access problems have been allowed into the game by one, and only one, mechanism - bolting, with its attending elimination of risk (Verdon not withstanding). Ninety percent of these "climbers" are simply looking to replicate their gym experience outside and that is the "gold" standard for them; that's why places like x38 are pretty much just outdoor climbing gyms. And most of the bolted climbs today aren't like Verdon, they are "bolt ladders" with an embarassing short interval between bolts designed to quarantee the elimination of risk. And somehow clipping a line of bolts has become "leading" as if "clipping" had mysteriously acquired a "skill" status higher than a base instinct or changing channels with a remote. "Safe" climbing now appears to have become close to a right or entitlement - and when you come down to it most of these "climbers" are either incapable of or simply not interested in assuming the level of personal responsibility it takes to "make" your own safety on a route (placing pro). They want to know a climb is safe before they leave the ground, they don't want to have to "make" it safe. Surfers are lucky - you can't bolt waves. They've preserved respect for their heritage and the past because going out and surfing today is just as dangerous as it was 40 years ago. Go out tommorrow and attempt to ride big waves over a shallow reef and you take your life in your hands same as it ever was - and you and the man or woman on the board next to you in the line up know exactly what kind of skill and courage it takes to drop in on the next big wave...

I suspect that anything qualifying as an "interesting" line up any part of that rock would be a semi-horror fest from a quality of rock perspective. Be careful what you hammer or nail up there, you might bring the whole thing down if you pull the wrong block. I'd be happy to go out to Beacon with you if you want to do some trad or there are lots of great routes there for roped soloing...

Of particular note to trad climbing ethics conversations in various other threads:

Congrats to all, I'm glad to hear about Dishman getting a little respect after all that abuse. It looks to be a nice little climbing area. My wife is from Spokane and the next time we're through the area I'm definitely going to stop by and give it a whirl. Again, good job all!

Karsten and I were out yesterday and Karsten spotted one of the cubs playing and sunning along the tracks at their RR crossing about a 100 yards east of the SE corner. The cubs were sticking pretty close to Mama last time. This one seemed pretty happy to just be hanging out sunning itself (until a train came along - then he scampered back down by the little lake...

If you follow this advice you'll never move your trad climbing skills along, falling is part of leading trad. Trad was never meant to be a risk free activity and learning to fall intelligently on lead is part of the game. Falling on lead falls into two categories - intentional and unanticipated. "Intentional" you say? First, to be honest, I believe most climbers only climb to their physical limit a couple of times in a lifetime and then usually under threat of death; the rest of the time, even though you tell yourself you're falling, you're really jumping off that rock from the emotional stress. By "intentional" I mean you you know you're coming off; so what then? Well, you should have a pretty good idea of the rock below you at that point as in, hey, you just climbed up it, so "intentional" fall scenarios go like this: The happiest scenario is you were climbing an overhanging wall or roof and you are a ways off the ground so just cut loose and enjoy the ride - you aren't going to hit anything. The second happiest scenario is you're climbing a long smooth vertical wall; stepping back, push off, and turn a bit sideways (will happen by instinct) and take a ride that you will only enjoy if you've done it a lot of times. [The scenarios start getting a little bit less happy at this point...] You're climbing more uneven ground and so now planning for, and anticipating, falling has to become an integrated aspect of placing protection and climbing past it. Protection is only that if it can do its job - every piece should be placed understanding the fall potential, both of falling above it and the fall if it pulls. These "fall potentials" should be analyzed and understood as you climb as they dictate the risks and decisions associated with climbing on, downclimbing[, or jumping] at any given point. This shouldn't be a preoccupation or obsession or constant negative noise in your head - it should just be a normal, integrated part of knowing your situation as you climb and place pro. Once you place a piece of protection you should have a pretty good idea of the risks associated with climbing past it and falling. Right up front that should free you to climb and push your limits, or cause you to consider what you are doing more carefully and either pushing on knowing a fall is not an acceptable outcome or backing down. No one can say "how to fall" in general, beyond push off and try not to hit anything - the important idea is have all the main issues relative to how bad a fall it might be figured out before you start up any given section of a pitch. Things like: how far is it likely to be to the next good piece of pro (how long of a potential fall), what's the quality of placement of the piece I just placed (how much of a fall can I take), what happens if this piece pops (how long a fall then and how likely is it my pro will zipper), what's the nature of any likely fall (ledges, protrusions, straight drop, swing down around a corner, overhanging, etc.). You should always be thinking ahead and weighing your options as you move beyond a placement. But once you decide to go - go - don't be second guessing yourself, it won't help. Make your decision, stay calm, and go. "Unanticipated" falls are usually, but not always, caused by a hold breaking on you that you didn't expect. This generally happens fast, without warning, and there is seldom anything you can do about it. I had this happen several weeks ago after testing every other piece of rock around the next move on a new route I grabbed the one that [i thought] needed no checking and the whole top of that rock came out in mid move like it was greased and I was off before I could do, say, or think anything. Try to avoid these by rapping on suspect holds and testing them. But every now and then you just get caught and there isn't much you can do about it. The other category of "unanticipated" falls that happens is being hit by something and again, there isn't much you can do about it beside hope you don't get hurt bad and can get back to business or bail. The only place where I personally buy into "don't fall" if humanly possible is when slab climbing - such falls are typically not happy and you can get pretty beat up in the process. Lots of advice in the forums on how to take such slab falls, but none of the options (sitting down, try to slide, run for it, etc.) are particularly happy. As everyone else has said, staying calm and keeping your wits about you so you can think clearly is the best and safest advice...

SpecialEd and MattP, I agree that the gear and gearhandling are a far, far secondary consideration to how you handle yourself on a climb. It's definitely not about the hardware - it's about confidence, creativity, judgement, and physical capability and how well you leverage them in any given situation. Keeping it together and staying smart can save your ass even with bad gear, but the best gear (no matter how it's organized) isn't going save you if you lose it and start making bad calls. I also agree with you that there is way too much emphasis and focus on the gear when folks are learning, but there's not as much money to be made selling common sense.

Cpt. No, I'm think I'm actually trying to agree with you relative to the causes of accidents, I just take a different message away from reading about them and that is just about any little thing can kill you under the right circumstances and I just tend to try to eliminate as much randomness as I can. And again, I don't think how you rack or re-rack matters at all (within reason), just that you do it consistently. But I can also easily envision a slow and confused rack exchange causing or contributing to an accident under the right circumstances even if the odds are somewhat long and remote (and again, you might never encounter them). I very much agree with AlpineK that in a lot of alpine settings speed/time/movement counts. And not just relative to having to bivy unexpectedly. On particularly technical routes with a lot of rockfall and avalanche potential, there is also significant risk in just being in any one place too long. Not being anywhere too long starts really counting from an odds/risk perspective. Messner and Haebler have repeatedly commented on this relative to their rationale for traveling fast, light, and often unroped; saying they felt that sometimes the time it took to deal effectively with the rope caused them to linger too long in place, and that they felt every minute in any given random place significantly increased the risk at that spot. In that context, and under the right circumstances, lingering too long in the wrong spot dicking around with a bad rack transfer or anything else could easily be a bad thing. Am I dissecting an accident that hasn't happened? Or has it, and we just don't know about it? Who knows, but again it's not too hard to imagine an unhappy wrong time/place event happening pretty easily for this or any other reason. And, yes, I figure you, and a lot of us writing these notes, have all been lucky bastards more times than we care to admit, and my general point is anything you can do to help "make" your own luck counts - even, or who knows, maybe especially the little things.

Guys, My whole point here is that I happen to disagree with the idea that some things are so trivial that they don't matter and that's the message that then gets conveyed to newbies. I just don't think there is much of anything about what we do that is trivial or to be taken lightly and for the following reason. That is, as the Cpt. is saying, the circumstance of most accidents are unique - i.e. not really that predictable - too unpredictable, in fact, to label or consider any aspect of climbing unimportant, or trivial, or to say it "couldn't possibly cause or contribute to an accident". The problem is that you can get away with saying or believing that 99% of the time (maybe your whole climbing career), but if you happen to get dealt the 1% you get fucked almost every time. E.g.: 10,000 gumbies (not you three guys, I do know you actually do have lots of great experience) can trot up up and down Mt. Hood [or Everest] during the 99% conditions and get away with it (and do), but if the unthinkable 1% event occurs (as it did during the recent epic with the helicopter crash) almost all of those very folks are wholly unprepared to deal - they go up there without the requisite skills to deal with a 1% event gambling that they can get in and out under the 99% conditions. The message I believe you guys are [inadvertantly] conveying that I disagree with is, that based on the fact that all of you [lucky bastards] have managed to randomly rack and roll with strangers without it ever contributing to any problem somehow how means you can safely extrapolate out that it won't be one for someone else. My point is that with racking, or any other aspect of what we do, it all counts exactly because you can't predict or exclude any arbitrary set of failure precursors. Maybe it's because I come from a family of pilots who think risk operates the same way in their world and see the most mundane things bring planes down on a regular basis that I don't treat things like racking as trivial. And in this particular case, I have been way out on the edge with a stranger's rack more times than I can count and recall being pretty fucking unhappy with the situation more than once. On the flip side, I had a partner for years that did everything including racking in sync with me and it still bums me out twenty years later that he lives in Minnesota. As to the specifics of racking, I don't think it makes much difference at all how you rack or re-rack if it works for you, I just happen to believe you should do whatever it is consistently, and really learn it so you don't have to think/talk much about it, and if you have a regular partner you should compromise and get a consistent act between you as well, again - you'll be able to climb harder, faster, and safer in the long run. Life or death - nah (99.9% of the time...)

Cpt. Actually, I wasn't talking about your specific comments at all. With regards to the "life or death" comment, I meant the ability to act alone or in concert with a minimum or conversation and confusion (like wondering where any given piece of pro is when you need it, being able to communicate through the rope when out of sight/hearing, periodically tying into the rope when cleaning aid, and knowing you're both tying knots in the end of the rope when doing long raps in the dark, etc... [or in the case of AlpineK's work, that someone in the crew is actually sharpening the chains he's climbing with - if he's that kind of arborist.]). You, Chuck, and AlpineK make it sound like all the various alpine and rock accidents and deaths that occur each year must all be due to some grand and external causes rather than small mistakes made in a moment of confusion over communication or mishandling gear for whatever reason. The point was: get an act/system together - any system - and stick with it so it becomes second nature. Do it individually and do it collectively and you will move far faster and safer. I don't know anyone that climbs fast, hard, and safe that doesn't have a stable and consistent act together with most aspects of their climbing and particularly their gear handling. [ For awhile here I've actually been convinced guys might have lots of experience on some reasonable routes and maybe even had a few near-death learning experiences of the self-imposed kind one occasionally runs into over years of playing around on the edge - but then again, maybe I was mistaken. After reading these responses one could easily get the idea that maybe you guys actually tend to gumby around a lot and play it so easy and safe that you're never really in the kind of situations, or under the kind of stress, where any of this shit starts making a difference - or maybe all three of you are just naturally lucky guys... ]