JosephH

Bill, That sounds about like my little foray up there. Maybe we should take Mark up on his offer and all go out and sort some of this out...

P.S. If anyone has a double-slotted #10 Titon or any size Crack'n'Ups they'd be willing to part with I'd like them, ditto for Lowe Balls (the older ones with a longer lower stem...).

Well, hmmmm, these are some different questions - I'll bite and give it a whack (even though I'm probably not back up to 5.11+ yet). I'm not sure that what pro you have/like is as important as how comfortable you are with it all, and how well you know where it all is when you need it as you climb. Perfection would be looking at a placement and reaching for the right piece of pro without looking. Striving for that requires that you somehow organize your rack in a consistent manner. It almost doesn't matter what the pro is or how you rack it so much as you rack it a way it works for you and that you do it the same every time. I'm personally transitioning to a new system that's more to the liking of my partner Marco compared to how I've racked things for thirty years (which no one but me liked...). I have all my pro color coded by size using the colors of the Metolius cam slings - i.e. all the pro that's the same size as a yellow slinged metolius cam has yellow tape on it, etc. In the past I had all the pieces of the same size on a single biener (gate down and out on the sling [all Petzel Spirits since my old rack was stolen]) with the stoppers on top and the cams underneath. They were then on my sling with doubled spare bieners chained in front followed by draws (doubled short loops, not sport draws), and then pro smallest to largest with the largest in the back. I never had any problem getting the pro I want off of a biener on the sling, but pretty much everyone universally thought it sucked. But with the clean front to back ordering of pro by size I usually got what I wanted by feel without looking. Now, however, my partner Marco and I both have Metolious "Big Wall" slings with two slings (single loops, not the segmented ones). We rack draws on the left, spare bieners doubled up on the chest loops (and harness), then on the right are stoppers segregated into four size groups on four bieners up front, followed by individual cams on bieners from the smallest to the largest, then finally by five or six Lowe Balls on two bieners in the back (or if it's looking really thin I'll throw a couple of crack'n'ups on the back as well). I also have Aliens (only the hybrids with different size cams) that I've had the loops shortened to match the length of the metolius cams and will sometimes put them in between the matching metolius cams if there appears to be a need (usually on older, granite routes with pin scars). The transition to the new system has been pretty smooth as everthing is still racked front to back by size, but where Marco climbs with the stopper bieners gate up and removes an entire bunch from the sling to place one, I turn the gates down and out and just remove the piece I need. It's worked out to be a good compromise. The only part that's taking a little getting used to is on roped solos where the rope is coming out the right side of a small pack on my back and I'm still sorting out some of the rope/gear interaction. As for your other questions, my favorite size cam is the one I need next. For stoppers I like old DMM nuts, HB Offsets, Metolius Curves, and OP Tri-Nuts. On the quirky side, I have shrink tubing on all my tricam slings that stiffens them and sport tape connecting the nut part to the slings so you can place them like a wired nut with the nut either in the up position like a stopper or down like a cam. All the lower tubing on my small Lowe Balls got heated real good and flattened out so they go into thin cracks better. All my larger cams have thin cotter pins on leashes to pin the cams back so they don't catch on stuff on the way up. I also carry a #9 Forrest Titon (on a shoulder sling) Hugh Banner was nice enough to part and feel utterly naked without it. Also, I often carry two Skyhooks for opposition or just as pro on large flakes - usually on granite (they and the crack'n'ups have short loops of thin cord for racking so the points aren't dragging). Let's see, what else... Oh, a couple of my draws (again doubled short slings) also have doubled elastic cord for holding pieces in opposition. I'd very much recommend that not all your draws be sport draws as that is typically the reason why you hear folks complain about stoppers/gear coming out as they climb past it - you have to be prepared to always put the right length sling on a piece and that's tough to do if all you have is sport draws. You're also asking how to decide what to take on a particular route which is a really tough question. When I'm training I take it all. Otherwise it depends on either eyeballing the route, seconding it with someone else who's done it, or getting beta on it - all of which make up a totally personal choice. I generally don't want beta or even know what the rating/name is - I just like to eyeball routes and try to climb them (or not), sometimes I surprise myself, sometimes I get surprised, and sometimes (like Saturday) I have an epic big or small. But if you've never been on a route, or been to the area, and can't get beta you'll have to guess like the rest of us and after going up a few routes a bit light on gear a couple of times you'll probably start erring a bit on the heavy side like most of us do in unfamiliar territory. That said, you should be able to make some educated guesses based on the type of rock and nature of the climb. The more yardage and experience you get in the better you'll get. My only comment would be that if you get highly dependent on guidebooks, ratings, and beta you'll probably always need them - better to learn on your own. [Also keep this in mind: I have a friend who is a fabulous guitarist and he can make a kid's toy guitar sound great whereas I make a Martin D-28 sound like a kid's toy. In fact, there is a guy named Bart up in Hood River who owns a consignment shop with a big, circa 1987 picture of a guy jumping an old windsurfer and a little sign under it that says, "The gear then was better than you are now...". The bottom line is, don't make too much of the gear, it's just stuff and all of it is better than what folks used to put up really hard, scary routes in the 70's and 80's - get to know yourself and the rock better and the gear will start sorting itself out.

Bill, As I said, if you go straight up from the crack immediately left (2') from the lefthand chains you'll end up in the same unpleasant and somewhat dangerous situation - to bad as it looks so inviting from the chains and ground, but it's like stepping into a differnt reality when you turn the corner... ---------------------------------------------------------- Mark, I'm not sure what the couch belay is (I've never looked at a guide book or climbed with any of you guys who know the names and history of everything...). Climbing it from the ground up was what I was trying to do going up to the chains (Boardwalk is what Bill called it). After we got down I started looking at going up around the right side of the block by go up and right from the chains on what I believe Bill called Raindance. It's cleaner but the bit from the chains up and right looks a bit sketchy from the ground and you'll have to work back left pretty quick or you'll be forced up into a rotten looking A-frame roof up high.

Mark, I'm not sure about the configuration of the blocks, but the second/third pitch anchors is where I was looking from. Again, it seems like there ought to be a couple of routes up there through it all...

Bill, I went up from the chains on the left, then stepped left onto the top of that block you're looking at (with the pin in it) when you're at the belay - didn't get very far after that. Once at that point you are standing on the top of the 5'X 15' stack of loose 6" veneer. The crack above then turns into a 12" left facing dihedral and that whole right hand surface making that dihedral is another loose 12" veneer right over the chains. Even if you cleaned is all, and it is a sea of downward sloping layers carpeted with 2" think moss, the crack would still need peckers or crack'n'ups to lead. I definitely misjudged what I was looking at from Young Warriors. I had fully expected it to be fairly clean. Now I have to go figure out what I was looking at. I'm sure there are a couple of good routes up through the corner blocks; you just can't stray right too far or the rock goes to hell pretty quick. In 1980, on my first trip out to Beacon, my partner and I tried to push through up through the big roofs in the middle of the east face and also beat a hasty retreat from up there in the face of an endless expanse of expanding [stacked, thin] veneers.

Dru - every euro I've encountered belays that way save one and he was belaying me so I made him change it. Belaying with a figure 8 in the rappel configuration is a lousy idea. But, you're right, they all chain smoke...

I totally agree with selkirk on this. Setting up and using a rappel (or a belay) is not a one-time, set it and forget it deal - rather it requires thorough understanding, careful setup, and constant monitoring and vigilance during use.

The best way to learn to lead is not by buying a bunch of unfamiliar active or passive gear and going and trying it. Placing pro is an art and the best way to learn it is by seconding good leaders and cleaning well placed pro of all types. Find someone who has been doing trad leads for awhile and start belaying for them and seconding. Second as many good leaders as you possibly can as there is a lot of style involved and different leaders will approach the same placement quite differently. Do that until you understand what's going on and then go out and get some gear. I would also recommend getting familiar with the passive stuff first. The suggestion of just walking along the cliff putting in pieces and weighting them by clipping on an aider or a couple of long slings put together is a good one. The best leaders I know place pro gently without a bunch of yarding on it to "set" it. Rather they do very little setting, but you can take multiple falls on most of their placements and it will still come right out fairly easy. Skill like that takes a good eye, a creative mind, and just getting in a lot of yardage on interesting routes. Also, the problem of stoppers or other passive pro coming out as the leader passes them is all to common but totally unnecessary with the proper placement, the length of sling on the piece, and/or another piece in opposition if it looks like it won't be able to stay put on its own. But then, that applies equally for cams... Oh, and don't overlook natural pro - choke points in the rock a sling can go around etc...

I would disagree with some of the conclusions in the article. 1. In particular, the advice of not clipping both waist and leg loops. I believe the problem is that, as illustrated in Fig. 2, they have the carabiener gate reversed from what it should be, i.e. the gate should be towards the climber, not outward (the gate opening however is correct towards the climber) - it just needs to be reversed. 2. I would never clip into the webbing loop for a rappel just for the reasons in this article, you add a ton of slack/slop to the whole chain and lose too much control over the alignment between individual components. The key to safe rappelling in all cases is careful alignment of ropes and devices. 3. If you feel compelled to belay with a figure 8 then do what the euros do - use just the small hole like a stitch plate (i.e. a loop goes through the small hole and just that loop of rope gets clipped, not any part of the figure 8) My own feeling is most beginners would be better off using an ATC of some sort for rappelling versus a figure 8. It is a simple device with many ways things that can go wrong beyond those described. In particular it is quite easy to get going at speeds that can get out of control. I would very much recommend backing up a figure 8 rappel (or any other) with a long sling prusik loop from a leg loop.

Was out at Beacon Sat. and tried going up through the corner blocks from the chains around the corner (to the right) from Young Warriors. Not recommended - veneers of loose rocks (in the tons) to the left low and right high (over the belayer), a sea of moss covered, downward slopping edges, and a pecker crack that would take a lot of cleaning - a fun down climb from it though...again, probably better not to venture up that way.

Forget the paper, forget Moore - read the Supreme Court decision, it's very short: http://usconservatives.about.com/bln1213ruling.htm and Justice Stevens' dissent: http://usconservatives.about.com/bln1213dissent.htm This is one of the most activist rulings in the history of the Supreme Court. Robbery plain and simple, and in relatively plain English...

Beacon today (fri. - was great) - Beacon tomorrow (sat.) - maybe Sunday too.

I have never climbed at Dishman, don't know who any of you are, but if this is what some of you think this is remotely acceptable behavior or anything but ambitious vandalism then climbing in general has taken a very sad turn. And what the hell does the fact that tourists and vagrants trash the place have to do with it? If you want to do something, then clean up around where you climb and pack some of that shit out of there; don't sink to the climbing equivalent of a drunk or junkie just because you happen to hang out at the same places they do. I'd rather see an area, any area, closed to access than be subjected to this kind of cowardice. And when some abberant ego vandalizes a crag and no one in the climbing community (Access Funders where are you...) steps up to correct the problem and you all lose access - well, you shouldn't be surprised - behavior like this is exactly how and why access is lost. Dane sounds to me like one of the only clear, objective voices not drowning in the need to rationalize self-absorbed consumption under some sort of "personal style" label. He's right - there is no acceptable "compromise" on this sort of behavior unless you're willing to see your access compromised. And, as if it needs saying, if no one shows up with the balls to lead an existing trad route for 10 months or 10 years so be it - have a little self respect and either dig around and find your stones or get on the route and earn some. P.S. I have climbed at Minnehaha and it is a fine crag that needs no "improvements" of this or any other sort. Dishman , from the pictures, looks good as well and you're all pretty lucky to have access to two such great little crags.

You guys don't even want to know what my wife thought about a bunch of guys hanging out on the Internet discussing the size of their tool when she caught a look at this thread over my shoulder. Bad enough, but then she made some disparaging remark about 6" being the best they could come up with between them - ouch...

I was under the impression that bolting was no longer allowed out at Beacon, is that not the case or are folks just doing it anyway?