JosephH

"working on a line on the south face of the west ridge"???

People who assiduously avoided service in Vietnam: Dick Cheney (five deferments) John Ashcroft (seven deferments) George Bush (a comfy spot in the Texas National Guard, and a mysterious gap in his records [not to mention sealed Texas driving records]) Men who served their country in Vietnam in combat: John McCain (listed here as a man of honor smeared by the Bush team, not as a Republican) Max Cleland John Kerry The former are liars and thieves who, given their choice of actions and the words they take great pains to employ, are unfit to call themselves "men" - let alone Patriots. For the sake of financial gain at any cost for the benefit of the few, the lot of them are willing to sell this country to the highest bidder (or give it away wholesale to cronies with no bids). Patriotism, Moral Authority - they are befret of the first and bankrupt of the second. I served two back-to-back tours in Vietnam and am here to tell you the latter named men (emphasis on "men") served their country with distinction in combat. Kerry didn't betray "us" on his return to the states - he spoke for us, as we did in turn on our return home. The vets that feel otherwise are wrapped up in their own experience/memories and not are not now and never were interested in looking at the what the war was really about and the cost to our military, country, and to the Vietnamese people. Vote for the cowards, thieves, and liars if you must - but they are the most activist, reckless, and cowardly group of men to ever assume power in this country. Nixon, Kissenger & Co. were intellectual giants and full of good intent compared to this crew. I have no doubt Eisenhower rolls over in his grave at the mere idea of a person like W. in the highest office of the land. W. and his whole crew are an embarrassment to the Republican party and to our nation. No Republican who truly holds the best interests of this country in mind or has any knowledge of party history would vote for these fools; only those with vested interests would (and one can only pity poor Colin Powell in this line up). In other words, be sure to rush out and re-elect the first drunken, cowardly cheerleader (and his corporate handlers) to assume and manipulate the Presidency of the United States of America. He and they degrade our military capability and national security with every passing day. And make no mistake, the Middle East is not Vietnam - we got off lucky there from the standpoint of reaping limited, strategic security reprecussions from bumbling our way through that fiasco, that will not be the case this time. P.S. Be honest, does that all sound bitter...?

They've been sailing quite a bit below and west of Beacon Rock as well. As for altitude - on the wall in the bathroom at Windance in Hood River they have a photo/article of a guy in Hawaii that inadvertantly went on a 20 minute, 600 foot high or so ride and was smart enough to remain calm and fight his way down. Probably the last time he way over-rigs.

Bill, That what I figured, thanks for clarifying this. So we don't know who they are saying originally did this free and clean on lead? Pretty bold move with just the one piece at the beginning... Jim couldn't quite remember and thought it might be the far right crack/seam/dyke that is part of the shallow dihedral that makes up the right side of the whole area around the chains belay. Neither one of us could find any signs of bolts on any of these variations though, but hey, we're both old and going blind (well, I started out blind)...

Bill, Just found this in the other thread... Does the variation you did have a 6", triangular, incut, sloping pocket and meet the bottom of the shallow dihedral? The "straight up and easing L" isn't clear to me either, but starting a bit left and laybacking up and right through the "white dike" to the middle of the "shallow dihedral" does go at about 510a-b. I would imagine going straight up to that "white dike" would be more 5.11-12 so maybe that's what you are talking about...

Jim O. and I went up and looked at these and I'll be damned if I can see any sign of bolt except the one in white rock above the bolt/pin combo at the ledge left of the pitch #1 chains. It's right on the edge of the crack that goes up about 10' right of the pitch #2 a-shaped slot. Jim said that bolt was for going up that crack/dihedral that parallels the pitch #2 a-shaped slot. We also threw a top rope down from the pitch #2 chains and did variations #2 and #3 as described above which both went on first attempt and run somewhere between 10a-b depending how you feel about high steps and delicate laybacks. Variation #2 above which goes up the black rock dyke/seam directly above the chains does take a small but bomber offset alien placement below the sloping incut 6" triangular pocket and after that you may be able to get a crack'n'up or beak in, but most likely just head on up to where it meets the bottom of the small dihedral going up lef to the pitch #2 ledge (the crux is a high-step kind of like doing the YW pitch #3/4 move up over the slab at the bolt). Variation #3 starts up and left of the pitch #1 chains (at the chopped bolt mentioned above) and laybacks the flakes going up right to the white dyke then up through that to meet the small dihedral about half way up on its way to the pitch #2 ledge. It does have some pro higher up but until then you are out in space on airy, fragile laybacks looking at a ledge fall if any of those flakes peels on you (the flakes are all hollow sounding and move a bit so you'll want to be very gentle on them and keep the pull sideways rather than out). Still not clear which is the "Old Farts" variation. Jim was thinking it was all the way on the right, but again I couldn't see any bolting at all up there when we checked it out.

They still check Black Velvet...

Epinephrine is the classic up in Black Velvet Canyon - definitely get the exit/overnight permit and bring lights if you go up it. I've heard the frightened yelling of [strong] folks trying to top out on it and/or trying to descend safely in the dark. Also, check your sphincter control and meditation skills before engaging those chimneys...

Bill and Mark, So, on this alternate pitch #2 on YW that got chopped; Karsten and I ran up YW this morning and tried to figure out what you folks were talking about and sort out my SE Corner blocks business. From the chains at the top of pitch #1 on YW it looks like there are four alternate ways up to the pitch #2 chains: 1: Far right up the biggest dihedral to a traverse of the horizontal-angling-up seam with the two pins in it just right of the pitch #2 chains 2: Up the face more or less directly above the pitch #1 chains staying on dark colored rock with a thin seam going more-or-less-straight-up-with-a-lean-to-the-left (and a 6" triangular sloping incut pocket at its base) and then into the base of the smaller dihedral going up left to the pitch #2 ledge. 3: Up and left from the pitch #1 chains then right up through a reasonable looking crack through a whiteish, wide seam meeting about in the middle of the smaller dihedral going up left to the pitch #2 ledge. 4: Up from the chains out on the face that is below and making up the left side of the smaller dihedral that going up left to the pitch #2 ledge. At the moment all four are pretty dirty, but on my brief look-see (Karsten nad I had to be out of there by noon) I didn't spot any chopped bolts but I was looking more at the pro than for bolts. So which of these is the "Old Farts" variation. Going up the bigger far right dihedral all the way up to the roofs is, it turns out, what I was hoping to intersect with going up from the chains from "Boardwalk".

What size saddle wedges? Stephane at the nut museum in Corsica, France is looking to fill in some missing wedge sizes (I just sent him a number 2). He has a lot of cool things in his collection. Things like these hardwood chocks from David Rearick of Eldo fame (and yes, they took falls on them)... [i'm also looking for crack'n'ups and the Lowe Balls (the ones with longer stems) if anyone has any they'd be willing to part with (not for a collection, but for climbing).]

Karsten and I will be out there this a.m. and then he's off on a trip with his girlfriend. I'll be out there Saturday and it would be great to meet some of the crew.

I've sprained/broken my right ankle several times in earlier years (weak to begin with) and as everyone says here, be diligent with the RICE. After the last time many years back a bunch of us coincidentally started walking tightrope (11mm rope cranked tight with pulleys) and I really haven't had nearly the problems I did before walking rope. Once you're completely back it is actually a great ankle strengthening exercise (and pretty meditative after a while). A chain or heavy wire would be good as well (though chains can be a bit squirrelly depending on size/length). Typical 1" webbing slackline would probably be less so, as it is more stabilized by the legs with less fine tuning in the ankles then a smaller, tighter medium. Even a 1x4 board with a couple of 2x4 blocks on the ends might be good for the purpose.

Snoboy, Thanks for the pointer to that extended thread. Nothing I see there changes my opinion which comes from years of experience (including designing and making harnesses). Also, it's not about numbers per se, as whatever accident stats there might be don't account for the endless parade of near misses and unreported incidents. And there's just a certain amount of common sense to understanding that a more complex device chain with more slop and slack (even for short moments) will likely result in far more potentially undesirable configurations than a simpler, tighter device chain. It's not rocket science - more like chaos theory. I'm fine with letting it drop now that you've posted a pointer to the longer discussion. Newbies need to weigh and evaluate this for themselves (put on your harness at home, hook up the various configurations, and study the various advantages/disadvantage or each) - it's just one aspect of many that are part of taking on responsibility for yourself in an activity that is not, and I hope never will be, entirely risk free. P.S. We used argue over the best way to tie a harness out of the end of the rope and what the best way to hip belay was (with or without a biener) - and I'm not sure anyone is much safer today than they were then for all the fancy gear.

Good to know, I was wondering who the Regional Coordinator for WA was when I was looking at the Dishman fiasco thread. I think John has been working there for a couple of seasons (I'm used to talking with Erik), and he is a rock/alpine climber with about ten years experience. He is very committed to keeping access open at Beacon, but I don't believe he's at all supportive of turning it into another outdoor gym ala' Broughton. I think everyone should give him the benefit of the doubt and assume they have our broader collective interests in mind when working with the complex legal apparatus and processes associated with access and park management. Those "broader collective interest" might not align with every individual's idea of paradise but we should get to keep climbing there and such is the world we now live in now...

I'm new here so I don't know what you've been through a million times. But with all due respect, I've been climbing for thirty years, have put up lots of trad first ascents, seen lots of accidents, done lots of rescues, trained lots of climbers, and do actually know what I'm talking about. I don't care what the manual says, the slop in the system produced by the belay loop, along with "gate up and in" biener orientation, is one of the primary problems associated with these kinds of accidents in both rappelling and belaying. So if newbies are to err one way or the other it should be towards the way that puts the device in less contact with the gate and lends them more control.

I would again very much recommend not rigging it as shown but go through both waist and leg loops putting the biener on from the top down and keep that gate down when it is pulled out from the body. And also again, manage the the alignment of the rope, biener, and device at all times. I personally never use the belay loop on my harness for much besides temporary clipping at anchors, I don't rap or belay off of it due the lack of control it engenders when included in the system.

Just noticed this is actually where this post belongs so I'm moving it... -------------------------------------------------------------------------- I checked with Erik (Park Manager) and John (Ranger) today just to be clear on what the official word is on bolting/fixed anchors at Beacon - here is what John said: Washington state law delegates it to individual management plans and the management plan for Beacon is currently under revision. The current status on bolting, however, is that it is only allowed for safety purposes and if anyone feels there is a need to replace or add a bolt/fixed anchor they should write it up and submit it at the station where it will be evaluated and approved or not. The basic gist of what I took away is that replacing spent rap anchors or the odd rare route bolt would be acceptable, wholesale (or even retail) bolting for route development would not be an acceptable use. I think this is a case where everyone probably needs to work together closely with Erik and John on this issue as they are very keen to see climbing remain open at Beacon. This isn't about their personal wants/desires, however, as there are other forces at work - not all of them local or as sympathetic to climbing as Erik and John. John (who is a climber) said he communicates regularly with Jim O. and has a lot of respect for him so if there are any questions about bolting it might be best to check first with Jim, but also do write up the need, pass it by Jim and ask him to talk with John and Erik about it. John also said that if anyone sees a problem (like the nut missing on the right anchor for "Wrong Gull") that he would like to be notified. Even though I've been climbing at Beacon on and off for 24 years, it's not "my" area ("my" main area and fa's were back east on sandstone in John Gill's wake) - I have nothing but the utmost respect for all of you who developed Beacon. But I do care about the place and my access to it and to be honest, their policy works for me. I also don't believe much positive can come from a "damn the man" attitude out there as in this case, from what I've seen over the years, Erik and John are, and have been, working with us (climbers) to preserve access. Again, it's my adopted "home", but you guys are the real "home boys" and I just thought I'd this all along. You might want to put your heads together and figure out if you can play a part or have a say in the management plan revisions.

I'm available on and off during the week and weekends to go out to Beacon - typically for morning (like 8-8:30am) runs out there. My schedule is quite variable so if you need a partner to go out to Beacon check with me (via PM) the day/night before as I may be able to sneak it in. I'm also not entirely averse to Broughton or Rocky Butte. I'm currently dropping weight, dealing with a bit of rotator cuff, getting back in shape in general, and just trying to get as much yardage in as possible. Not pulling too hard at the moment but will be bumping it up through the next month or two as the weight drops off and I get the rotator cuff under control. Since 7/15, I've been just running out and doing lots of roped solos up Free For All and Young Warriors, the odd solo aid route, or whatever I can with various partners. As of today I can get up Wrong Gull, Windsurfer and Free For Some, but not quite the last 10' of Pipeline and haven't ventured over to Blownout yet... My PDX door-to-door dash time for a quick roped solo run up Free For All is now just under 2:45, Young Warriors stretches out to about 4:00-4:30. I'm not into speed climbing, but only mentioning this to say it is possible to get out and back in half a day or less and still get in some routes out there if you are efficient. So, anyway, I'm slowly getting back and can accomodate just about anyone's tastes/interests. I'm just as happy doing the SE Corner or 5.6 as anything else. Or I'd be a happy belay slave if you're feeling like a hard body at the moment. I'm also willing to teach/mentor trad skills if you are interested (teaching would mostly consist of me leading and putting in as many odd and peculiar placements as I can think of for you to remove - mentoring would be us swapping leads and me trying to think up clever and insightful things to say about your placements). In general, I try not to take any of this too seriously (especially myself) and just enjoy being out there.

I'll check it out again when I go out Thurday or Friday - I can usually get the small lowe balls or crack'n'ups going in that sort of terrain.

Moved this post to the "Access Issues" forum list under "Bolting at Beacon Rock".

Is there no pro or is it just small or sketchy? I agree, if someone did it clean, leave it that way.

Mark, Oh, no the one I'm thinking of leaves up and right from the chains at the top of the first pitch of YW.

Mark, Well, it certainly looked like it would have seen some traffic before...

Bill and Mark, I did look at that dihedral as well and noticed the couple of old pins in the horizontal coming into the belay at the top of the second pitch of YW. The dihedral (going up and right from the chains at the top of the first pitch of YW looks like it would be fun and certainly a safer way up around the nasty stuff I was on Sat.

Mark, If you're going to be out there maybe we could just run up Young Warriors for a look-see. I agree the rock probably isn't the greatest up there or there would already be routes.