JosephH

Snoboy, Thanks for the pointer to that extended thread. Nothing I see there changes my opinion which comes from years of experience (including designing and making harnesses). Also, it's not about numbers per se, as whatever accident stats there might be don't account for the endless parade of near misses and unreported incidents. And there's just a certain amount of common sense to understanding that a more complex device chain with more slop and slack (even for short moments) will likely result in far more potentially undesirable configurations than a simpler, tighter device chain. It's not rocket science - more like chaos theory. I'm fine with letting it drop now that you've posted a pointer to the longer discussion. Newbies need to weigh and evaluate this for themselves (put on your harness at home, hook up the various configurations, and study the various advantages/disadvantage or each) - it's just one aspect of many that are part of taking on responsibility for yourself in an activity that is not, and I hope never will be, entirely risk free. P.S. We used argue over the best way to tie a harness out of the end of the rope and what the best way to hip belay was (with or without a biener) - and I'm not sure anyone is much safer today than they were then for all the fancy gear.

Good to know, I was wondering who the Regional Coordinator for WA was when I was looking at the Dishman fiasco thread. I think John has been working there for a couple of seasons (I'm used to talking with Erik), and he is a rock/alpine climber with about ten years experience. He is very committed to keeping access open at Beacon, but I don't believe he's at all supportive of turning it into another outdoor gym ala' Broughton. I think everyone should give him the benefit of the doubt and assume they have our broader collective interests in mind when working with the complex legal apparatus and processes associated with access and park management. Those "broader collective interest" might not align with every individual's idea of paradise but we should get to keep climbing there and such is the world we now live in now...

I'm new here so I don't know what you've been through a million times. But with all due respect, I've been climbing for thirty years, have put up lots of trad first ascents, seen lots of accidents, done lots of rescues, trained lots of climbers, and do actually know what I'm talking about. I don't care what the manual says, the slop in the system produced by the belay loop, along with "gate up and in" biener orientation, is one of the primary problems associated with these kinds of accidents in both rappelling and belaying. So if newbies are to err one way or the other it should be towards the way that puts the device in less contact with the gate and lends them more control.

I would again very much recommend not rigging it as shown but go through both waist and leg loops putting the biener on from the top down and keep that gate down when it is pulled out from the body. And also again, manage the the alignment of the rope, biener, and device at all times. I personally never use the belay loop on my harness for much besides temporary clipping at anchors, I don't rap or belay off of it due the lack of control it engenders when included in the system.

Just noticed this is actually where this post belongs so I'm moving it... -------------------------------------------------------------------------- I checked with Erik (Park Manager) and John (Ranger) today just to be clear on what the official word is on bolting/fixed anchors at Beacon - here is what John said: Washington state law delegates it to individual management plans and the management plan for Beacon is currently under revision. The current status on bolting, however, is that it is only allowed for safety purposes and if anyone feels there is a need to replace or add a bolt/fixed anchor they should write it up and submit it at the station where it will be evaluated and approved or not. The basic gist of what I took away is that replacing spent rap anchors or the odd rare route bolt would be acceptable, wholesale (or even retail) bolting for route development would not be an acceptable use. I think this is a case where everyone probably needs to work together closely with Erik and John on this issue as they are very keen to see climbing remain open at Beacon. This isn't about their personal wants/desires, however, as there are other forces at work - not all of them local or as sympathetic to climbing as Erik and John. John (who is a climber) said he communicates regularly with Jim O. and has a lot of respect for him so if there are any questions about bolting it might be best to check first with Jim, but also do write up the need, pass it by Jim and ask him to talk with John and Erik about it. John also said that if anyone sees a problem (like the nut missing on the right anchor for "Wrong Gull") that he would like to be notified. Even though I've been climbing at Beacon on and off for 24 years, it's not "my" area ("my" main area and fa's were back east on sandstone in John Gill's wake) - I have nothing but the utmost respect for all of you who developed Beacon. But I do care about the place and my access to it and to be honest, their policy works for me. I also don't believe much positive can come from a "damn the man" attitude out there as in this case, from what I've seen over the years, Erik and John are, and have been, working with us (climbers) to preserve access. Again, it's my adopted "home", but you guys are the real "home boys" and I just thought I'd this all along. You might want to put your heads together and figure out if you can play a part or have a say in the management plan revisions.

I'm available on and off during the week and weekends to go out to Beacon - typically for morning (like 8-8:30am) runs out there. My schedule is quite variable so if you need a partner to go out to Beacon check with me (via PM) the day/night before as I may be able to sneak it in. I'm also not entirely averse to Broughton or Rocky Butte. I'm currently dropping weight, dealing with a bit of rotator cuff, getting back in shape in general, and just trying to get as much yardage in as possible. Not pulling too hard at the moment but will be bumping it up through the next month or two as the weight drops off and I get the rotator cuff under control. Since 7/15, I've been just running out and doing lots of roped solos up Free For All and Young Warriors, the odd solo aid route, or whatever I can with various partners. As of today I can get up Wrong Gull, Windsurfer and Free For Some, but not quite the last 10' of Pipeline and haven't ventured over to Blownout yet... My PDX door-to-door dash time for a quick roped solo run up Free For All is now just under 2:45, Young Warriors stretches out to about 4:00-4:30. I'm not into speed climbing, but only mentioning this to say it is possible to get out and back in half a day or less and still get in some routes out there if you are efficient. So, anyway, I'm slowly getting back and can accomodate just about anyone's tastes/interests. I'm just as happy doing the SE Corner or 5.6 as anything else. Or I'd be a happy belay slave if you're feeling like a hard body at the moment. I'm also willing to teach/mentor trad skills if you are interested (teaching would mostly consist of me leading and putting in as many odd and peculiar placements as I can think of for you to remove - mentoring would be us swapping leads and me trying to think up clever and insightful things to say about your placements). In general, I try not to take any of this too seriously (especially myself) and just enjoy being out there.

I'll check it out again when I go out Thurday or Friday - I can usually get the small lowe balls or crack'n'ups going in that sort of terrain.

Moved this post to the "Access Issues" forum list under "Bolting at Beacon Rock".

Is there no pro or is it just small or sketchy? I agree, if someone did it clean, leave it that way.

Mark, Oh, no the one I'm thinking of leaves up and right from the chains at the top of the first pitch of YW.

Mark, Well, it certainly looked like it would have seen some traffic before...

Bill and Mark, I did look at that dihedral as well and noticed the couple of old pins in the horizontal coming into the belay at the top of the second pitch of YW. The dihedral (going up and right from the chains at the top of the first pitch of YW looks like it would be fun and certainly a safer way up around the nasty stuff I was on Sat.

Mark, If you're going to be out there maybe we could just run up Young Warriors for a look-see. I agree the rock probably isn't the greatest up there or there would already be routes.

Bill, That sounds about like my little foray up there. Maybe we should take Mark up on his offer and all go out and sort some of this out...

P.S. If anyone has a double-slotted #10 Titon or any size Crack'n'Ups they'd be willing to part with I'd like them, ditto for Lowe Balls (the older ones with a longer lower stem...).

Well, hmmmm, these are some different questions - I'll bite and give it a whack (even though I'm probably not back up to 5.11+ yet). I'm not sure that what pro you have/like is as important as how comfortable you are with it all, and how well you know where it all is when you need it as you climb. Perfection would be looking at a placement and reaching for the right piece of pro without looking. Striving for that requires that you somehow organize your rack in a consistent manner. It almost doesn't matter what the pro is or how you rack it so much as you rack it a way it works for you and that you do it the same every time. I'm personally transitioning to a new system that's more to the liking of my partner Marco compared to how I've racked things for thirty years (which no one but me liked...). I have all my pro color coded by size using the colors of the Metolius cam slings - i.e. all the pro that's the same size as a yellow slinged metolius cam has yellow tape on it, etc. In the past I had all the pieces of the same size on a single biener (gate down and out on the sling [all Petzel Spirits since my old rack was stolen]) with the stoppers on top and the cams underneath. They were then on my sling with doubled spare bieners chained in front followed by draws (doubled short loops, not sport draws), and then pro smallest to largest with the largest in the back. I never had any problem getting the pro I want off of a biener on the sling, but pretty much everyone universally thought it sucked. But with the clean front to back ordering of pro by size I usually got what I wanted by feel without looking. Now, however, my partner Marco and I both have Metolious "Big Wall" slings with two slings (single loops, not the segmented ones). We rack draws on the left, spare bieners doubled up on the chest loops (and harness), then on the right are stoppers segregated into four size groups on four bieners up front, followed by individual cams on bieners from the smallest to the largest, then finally by five or six Lowe Balls on two bieners in the back (or if it's looking really thin I'll throw a couple of crack'n'ups on the back as well). I also have Aliens (only the hybrids with different size cams) that I've had the loops shortened to match the length of the metolius cams and will sometimes put them in between the matching metolius cams if there appears to be a need (usually on older, granite routes with pin scars). The transition to the new system has been pretty smooth as everthing is still racked front to back by size, but where Marco climbs with the stopper bieners gate up and removes an entire bunch from the sling to place one, I turn the gates down and out and just remove the piece I need. It's worked out to be a good compromise. The only part that's taking a little getting used to is on roped solos where the rope is coming out the right side of a small pack on my back and I'm still sorting out some of the rope/gear interaction. As for your other questions, my favorite size cam is the one I need next. For stoppers I like old DMM nuts, HB Offsets, Metolius Curves, and OP Tri-Nuts. On the quirky side, I have shrink tubing on all my tricam slings that stiffens them and sport tape connecting the nut part to the slings so you can place them like a wired nut with the nut either in the up position like a stopper or down like a cam. All the lower tubing on my small Lowe Balls got heated real good and flattened out so they go into thin cracks better. All my larger cams have thin cotter pins on leashes to pin the cams back so they don't catch on stuff on the way up. I also carry a #9 Forrest Titon (on a shoulder sling) Hugh Banner was nice enough to part and feel utterly naked without it. Also, I often carry two Skyhooks for opposition or just as pro on large flakes - usually on granite (they and the crack'n'ups have short loops of thin cord for racking so the points aren't dragging). Let's see, what else... Oh, a couple of my draws (again doubled short slings) also have doubled elastic cord for holding pieces in opposition. I'd very much recommend that not all your draws be sport draws as that is typically the reason why you hear folks complain about stoppers/gear coming out as they climb past it - you have to be prepared to always put the right length sling on a piece and that's tough to do if all you have is sport draws. You're also asking how to decide what to take on a particular route which is a really tough question. When I'm training I take it all. Otherwise it depends on either eyeballing the route, seconding it with someone else who's done it, or getting beta on it - all of which make up a totally personal choice. I generally don't want beta or even know what the rating/name is - I just like to eyeball routes and try to climb them (or not), sometimes I surprise myself, sometimes I get surprised, and sometimes (like Saturday) I have an epic big or small. But if you've never been on a route, or been to the area, and can't get beta you'll have to guess like the rest of us and after going up a few routes a bit light on gear a couple of times you'll probably start erring a bit on the heavy side like most of us do in unfamiliar territory. That said, you should be able to make some educated guesses based on the type of rock and nature of the climb. The more yardage and experience you get in the better you'll get. My only comment would be that if you get highly dependent on guidebooks, ratings, and beta you'll probably always need them - better to learn on your own. [Also keep this in mind: I have a friend who is a fabulous guitarist and he can make a kid's toy guitar sound great whereas I make a Martin D-28 sound like a kid's toy. In fact, there is a guy named Bart up in Hood River who owns a consignment shop with a big, circa 1987 picture of a guy jumping an old windsurfer and a little sign under it that says, "The gear then was better than you are now...". The bottom line is, don't make too much of the gear, it's just stuff and all of it is better than what folks used to put up really hard, scary routes in the 70's and 80's - get to know yourself and the rock better and the gear will start sorting itself out.

Bill, As I said, if you go straight up from the crack immediately left (2') from the lefthand chains you'll end up in the same unpleasant and somewhat dangerous situation - to bad as it looks so inviting from the chains and ground, but it's like stepping into a differnt reality when you turn the corner... ---------------------------------------------------------- Mark, I'm not sure what the couch belay is (I've never looked at a guide book or climbed with any of you guys who know the names and history of everything...). Climbing it from the ground up was what I was trying to do going up to the chains (Boardwalk is what Bill called it). After we got down I started looking at going up around the right side of the block by go up and right from the chains on what I believe Bill called Raindance. It's cleaner but the bit from the chains up and right looks a bit sketchy from the ground and you'll have to work back left pretty quick or you'll be forced up into a rotten looking A-frame roof up high.

Mark, I'm not sure about the configuration of the blocks, but the second/third pitch anchors is where I was looking from. Again, it seems like there ought to be a couple of routes up there through it all...

Bill, I went up from the chains on the left, then stepped left onto the top of that block you're looking at (with the pin in it) when you're at the belay - didn't get very far after that. Once at that point you are standing on the top of the 5'X 15' stack of loose 6" veneer. The crack above then turns into a 12" left facing dihedral and that whole right hand surface making that dihedral is another loose 12" veneer right over the chains. Even if you cleaned is all, and it is a sea of downward sloping layers carpeted with 2" think moss, the crack would still need peckers or crack'n'ups to lead. I definitely misjudged what I was looking at from Young Warriors. I had fully expected it to be fairly clean. Now I have to go figure out what I was looking at. I'm sure there are a couple of good routes up through the corner blocks; you just can't stray right too far or the rock goes to hell pretty quick. In 1980, on my first trip out to Beacon, my partner and I tried to push through up through the big roofs in the middle of the east face and also beat a hasty retreat from up there in the face of an endless expanse of expanding [stacked, thin] veneers.

Dru - every euro I've encountered belays that way save one and he was belaying me so I made him change it. Belaying with a figure 8 in the rappel configuration is a lousy idea. But, you're right, they all chain smoke...

I totally agree with selkirk on this. Setting up and using a rappel (or a belay) is not a one-time, set it and forget it deal - rather it requires thorough understanding, careful setup, and constant monitoring and vigilance during use.

The best way to learn to lead is not by buying a bunch of unfamiliar active or passive gear and going and trying it. Placing pro is an art and the best way to learn it is by seconding good leaders and cleaning well placed pro of all types. Find someone who has been doing trad leads for awhile and start belaying for them and seconding. Second as many good leaders as you possibly can as there is a lot of style involved and different leaders will approach the same placement quite differently. Do that until you understand what's going on and then go out and get some gear. I would also recommend getting familiar with the passive stuff first. The suggestion of just walking along the cliff putting in pieces and weighting them by clipping on an aider or a couple of long slings put together is a good one. The best leaders I know place pro gently without a bunch of yarding on it to "set" it. Rather they do very little setting, but you can take multiple falls on most of their placements and it will still come right out fairly easy. Skill like that takes a good eye, a creative mind, and just getting in a lot of yardage on interesting routes. Also, the problem of stoppers or other passive pro coming out as the leader passes them is all to common but totally unnecessary with the proper placement, the length of sling on the piece, and/or another piece in opposition if it looks like it won't be able to stay put on its own. But then, that applies equally for cams... Oh, and don't overlook natural pro - choke points in the rock a sling can go around etc...

I would disagree with some of the conclusions in the article. 1. In particular, the advice of not clipping both waist and leg loops. I believe the problem is that, as illustrated in Fig. 2, they have the carabiener gate reversed from what it should be, i.e. the gate should be towards the climber, not outward (the gate opening however is correct towards the climber) - it just needs to be reversed. 2. I would never clip into the webbing loop for a rappel just for the reasons in this article, you add a ton of slack/slop to the whole chain and lose too much control over the alignment between individual components. The key to safe rappelling in all cases is careful alignment of ropes and devices. 3. If you feel compelled to belay with a figure 8 then do what the euros do - use just the small hole like a stitch plate (i.e. a loop goes through the small hole and just that loop of rope gets clipped, not any part of the figure 8) My own feeling is most beginners would be better off using an ATC of some sort for rappelling versus a figure 8. It is a simple device with many ways things that can go wrong beyond those described. In particular it is quite easy to get going at speeds that can get out of control. I would very much recommend backing up a figure 8 rappel (or any other) with a long sling prusik loop from a leg loop.

Was out at Beacon Sat. and tried going up through the corner blocks from the chains around the corner (to the right) from Young Warriors. Not recommended - veneers of loose rocks (in the tons) to the left low and right high (over the belayer), a sea of moss covered, downward slopping edges, and a pecker crack that would take a lot of cleaning - a fun down climb from it though...again, probably better not to venture up that way.

Forget the paper, forget Moore - read the Supreme Court decision, it's very short: http://usconservatives.about.com/bln1213ruling.htm and Justice Stevens' dissent: http://usconservatives.about.com/bln1213dissent.htm This is one of the most activist rulings in the history of the Supreme Court. Robbery plain and simple, and in relatively plain English...