JosephH

Did Epinephrine on Friday 11/19. The weather was great and we had it all to ourselves. On Sunday the 11/21 there was an inch of snow on 160 heading up to Black Velvet and Epi was covered in a sheet of ice and snow. You really have to pick your window and jump on it this time of year...

I would have to say that both the belay anchor and the first piece of pro should be omni-directional or in opposition with another piece if necessary. I learned this the hard way on a low angle traverse I led once. On setting up the belay for my second after crossing an overhanging arete fin I couldn't really get a decent omni-directional or opposition setup (I'm pretty good with pro, but this was an FA and we were out of rope, and so I had to go with what was available). My second who is a very good climber none the less fell near the end of the pitch after he had cleaned the last piece of pro. If a notch in the arete hadn't caught the rope he would have swung in a perfect radius out over the abyss. Given my hanging stance we definitely would have both been pulled off once he swung 180 degrees to my opposite side. There wasn't much I could have done different in that particular situation as there was no belay point before that and in those days of stoppers and hexes the options were somewhat limited. The previous posters are correct in saying most accidents are from a bad first piece of pro (sometimes in combination with a belayer standing back too far from the rock). The actual belay anchoring should be about solidly securing the belayer omni-directionally as your leader could take a dive before getting a first piece in. Such a fall should always be in the back of your mind when setting up anchors on a multi-pitch climb.

My main climbing partner did his Masters and PH.d on risk perception. The study of what satisfies/excites us (individual serotonin management) vs. the actual objective risks we accept in our daily lives is quite fascinating. We all talk about "getting in your car...blah, blah, blah", but our perecptions of speed, vertical vs. horizontal, height, objects in flight, bodies (human and machine) in motion juxtaposed against frequency of experience makes for very interesting results when surveying "average" folk on what they consider risky behavior. These perceptions cross-referenced against actual death and accident statistics for various activities usually show people are a lousy judge of the objective risks they accept in their lives. We don't typically acknowledge the risks associated with high velocities in particular, probably because as a species the experience is so new we aren't really wired to chemically acknowledge the risks associated with it. As a side note: I once watched a woman in heels, a full length fur, and an red umbrella breach a police baracade and walk at a sanquine and regal pace on her way to Bonwitt Tellers in the base of the Hancock building in Chicago while 8-12" ice chunks from the thawing antennaes bombarded all around her (6+ per minute within 30 feet) - she didn't break pace for a moment (even with ice shrapnel spraying her feet) or heed any of our yells to "RUN!LADY!RUN" - but simply strolled into the store giving us a look of complete disdain as she crossed the threshold. If it were an alpine situation crossing a ramp, few climbers I know would ever have dared to make the same crossing...

One of our new climbing partners, Taylor, is visting PDX for a month as part of a medical residency and did a roped solo of Free For Some the weekend before last and now believes he left his Mammut SuperSafe (green) rope out there. It was in a black Metolius rope bag. His schedule is very hectic and he climbed with us this weekend hence the delay in realizing the rope was missing. Anyone help him out? He thinks he left it either down by the climb or up at the turnout. Please give me a PM if you know its whereabouts...thanks.

If Gary didn't suspend someone being deployed then I'd say that's pretty damn unfair (speaking as a Vietnam Vet). As to attempting to convey how the commercial financing works I'll back off that but again, the costing is unlikely to change so there's not a lot of point in belaboring either side of that one. Anyway, I'm getting happier with things...

I spoke with Michael today and he said he'd check in for the latest posts. And, hey, these are all great posts. Again, on the financial front I'm sure their options are somewhat limited given the debt burden. That would mean that free auxillary classes, three month on-a-whim suspensions, and large purchases of non-climbing exercise equipment would be pretty tough right now. That said, Gary has always suspended the clock for injuries and if someone was deployed with the guard or reserve it's hard for me to believe Gary wouldn't allow that as well though I don't know about the specific instance mentioned above where he apparently didn't - if that's really the case he should reconsider that decision in my eyes. Again, though, I suspect the "I want a year, but want to suspend over the summer" is unlikely and I wouldn't do it in his position either. I also notice the IWindSurf.com doesn't let you suspend annual weather access during the winter months... The punch card expiration is another matter - that should definitely be good for 4/6/9 months as far as I'm concerned; 3 months is way to tight for folks that travel for work. In general right now I think Gary is still trying to understand how to operate this new gym from a cash flow/financing perspective. The big problem versus a 24-hour fitness is there are just no economies of scale for a single location business like this, it's a expensive endeavor plain and simple and a bunch of it gets passed on to us. But trust me - he isn't getting rich on the gym and he isn't some big corporation or partnership syndicate - he's just a guy that's been grinding it out for years, stashing what he can, and finally built up enough cash and cred to roll it over into the new place. I also had some pretty long talks with him during construction about the HVAC/energy setup in the building and that was another total guess as far as heating/cooling cycles and costs that would take a year or two to figure out. Lead ropes at Stone Gardens - that's new since the 6 months I was up there last year; also highly unlikely and I haven't seen this in a gym but I don't exactly make the plastic rounds all that much. Lead certs definitely shouldn't be charged for, period - that is nickel and dime stuff. The yoga and pilates classes are probably somewhat hard to schedule unless you really get in a groove with an instructor or two that are reliable. I do recall Gary saying he wasn't making anything on these classes and in fact on a square foot basis was losing money. I also believe that it would be a great idea for annual members to guest someone in once a quarter or so and do it as part of a referral incentive program - like 2 or 3 extra months on your ticket if you bring in someone that joins with an annual. Keep'em coming...

I went in last night and they now at least have a couple of juggy routes up the big overhang so at least that's some progress on my main complaint. I wouldn't bemoan starting the thread, you probably woke them up a bit. We'll just have to see how much over time...

All good feedback, I'd say keep it coming to them as something hits you... Bill and I will keep giving them reminders to check in on this thread no and then...

So gang, aside from the cost, which I'm guessing even Gary has only so much leeway in given the financing, any more suggestions that the PRG folks can actually do something about? I think I noticed an attempt at new bike racks so they must be listening. And there is at least a reasonable route up the overhang even if it isn't a total laptrack...

Yep, most are double looped, but I'm going through replacing them with dyneema which makes for triple looped which I'm not sure I like compared with doubled, but oh well... [Real trad draws are hemp and hand tied with one hand as you need them...]

I use a Metolius "Big Wall" double sling with a very small pouch on the back - the single vs. multi-loop one: Metolius Big Wall Gear Sling I rack protection small to large, front to back on the right sling with stoppers sorted by size on the four biners in the front, cams are after that one to a biner. [Trad] draws on the left sling, free biners on the two shoulder strap loops, long slings over my shoulder. This is a very, very comfortable and balanced rack and you can either put wallet, keys, food bar or a water bladder in the pouch. Wouldn't go back to another way of racking for any reason. P.S. I also never liked racking on my harness - gives me the willies for some reason...

Reading Hal's comment, I realize I should be clearer about my comment on "toothed" devices. I agree with Hal and others that in a solo TR situation (which I've done next to none of...) a Petzl Traxion device or any other device with teeth would probably be just fine - it's really only an issue with lead falls and even then it's just a matter of shredding your sheath, the device will still stop you.

Hi all, Yes, I've done a lot of roped soloing (free and aid) over the years and the bottom line for me is I always feel horrified the first pitch or two, or the first half hour (whichever is shorter) and then the experience just transforms into one that's utterly and completely sublime and serene - even better if no one else is around. However, keep in mind it is also an exceptionally clear and powerful mirror that on more than one occassion has sent me packing from the rock because it showed me I didn't have my shit together that day. It is as self-reliant as you can get without ditching the rope and free soloing and for the right folks I highly recommend it. It is also faster than climbing with a partner once you have an act down with it. As far as how can you tell if you should do a roped solo - you'll know because one day partnering won't work out and it will either be rope soloing, bouldering, or going home - which you choose to do will probably be pretty definitive. I started roped soloing during my first trip to Boulder in '75. I'd call people from the climbers board at Boulder Mountaineering and have a great conversation, set up a time to meet, and then just before hanging up they'd ask me where I was from and I'd say, "Illinois", and suddenly they'd remember a dental appointment. On a day that happened I saw the Yosemite Roped Solo (YSR) technique in a book at the store and said, well, what the hell. I had planned on going up to Castle Rock in Boulder Canyon so went up there and ended up using some slings for aiders and giving it a whirl on "The Aid Roof". Never having aided before, I ended up a swirling, comedic mass of rope and slings (a nearby belayer almost dropped his partner he was laughing so hard). I ended up dropping back to the ground with the middle of the rope, re-aided it, and finally figured it all out. The next day I did the Bastille Crack and ran into Brashears and Wunsch at the top while they were working on "Rain" and got to give the crux on that a whirl as well and after that had no problem with partners - but I've been in love with roped soloing ever since. And really, my first real roped solo on the Bastille Crack (with just nuts back then) is probably still one of my fondest climbing experiences (repeated whenever I'm through there). Anyway, that's how I got started with it, fustration and desperation... So here is a pointer to another thread where I describe the method I now use after Bud Smith finally convinced me to switch over to his method. Now that I have a bunch of experience with it I agree with DWR and Dru relative to going steel with the device attachment to the harness to guard against crossloading. I am very, very precise and specific about the grigri placement on the belay loop and its orientation to me, the rope, and the harness - I further monitor the relative positions of all these components all the time. I'd be more inclined to set it and forget it with steel. But you should be aware that regardless of the technique or device, you need to pay attention to and constantly monitor all device/rope/harness interations - not to the point of preoccupation, just be aware of what's going on as crossloading in a fall is a real concern with the use of any device regardless of the solo technique. Link to thread with post describing my (Bud Smith's) roped solo technique with a grigr As far as rope drag, yeah you have to deal with it, but it's never been a problem at all. I use an unmodified grigri and haven't been at all motivated to mod it due to rope drag. One technical note: you should use some form of Screamer/Air Voyager between your anchors and rope end when leading with roped solo devices. And with regard to other devices: I do have Petzl Mini- and Pro-Traxions, but I hesitate to use them exactly because of the barbed teeth Kevin mentioned will probably do some shredding. I'm not familiar with the Rocker or Ushba device Dru mentioned but I'd be inclined to trust his judgment. My partner for years has used a Soloist for top ropes and leads and generally likes it (or at least still uses it). I personally don't like the whole chest harness arrangement it requires. The Silent Partner really looks like the way to go other than a) it's bigger than a breadbox and b) Packing a device out to the rock that is only used for roped soloing almost too explicitly states "I'm going out to solo" - and to be honest, some days are like that, but most of the times I like to leave my options pretty loose and and do what I feel like when I get there - a grigri more implicitly advertises simply the possibility. Bill's simple approach of dropping a separate rope down the cliff works on short TR-size cliffs. There are lot's of ways to TR it with devices: prusik (sucks), Soloist, Petzl Shunt, Grigri, Mini-Traxion, etc. You can also tie figure eights every so often in it and put two draws (preferrably with lockers on your side) on your belay loop and leap frog them up the knots. You can also lead this way if you'd rather not place pro. Lead normally clipping the figure eights like they were bolts. A lot of these types of approaches to solo TR work better if the bottom of the rope is anchored or weighted (I prefer weighted); but never so tight the rope won't go through mechanical devices if you're using one (though if your leading and clipping an anchored line you may want to fix the bottom to insure the clips will be available). Enjoy - feel free to ask any other questions here or pm me. And if we can do a clinic next summer out at Beacon if anyone is interested...

Thrill, On reviewing your posts I have to admit you say some great things in between the boorish comments like this one...

This is another example of folks wanting to simply replicate their gym experience outdoors, eliminate risk, and insure success (and a limit version of it at best). One aspect of doing FA's that never really gets discussed much is that to do them one has to be self-responsible and capable of mapping their abilities to rock with no external assistance. This really extends beyond FA's in that you should strive to be able to walk up to a rock and have a rough idea whether your abilities are in the ball park to climb it. I mostly see people these days taking their "gym rating" and translating that to an outdoor area's ratings and then exclusively using guidebooks and ratings to decide what to climb. I'd very much recommend the next time you go to a new area use the guidebook to get you there and understand the layout, but then leave it behind and just walk the routes and do some. Will you always choose right? Will you always get up everything you choose? No, but you'll begin the process of connecting what you know about your abilities with what you see when you look at the rock. Hell, you might even epic, but that ability to find your own way on rock relative to (or pushing) your abilities without beta is a highly desirable thing to acquire.

Michael, That might be possible if Gary had partners or the gym was run by a larger corporation, but that's not the case and it only stands at all because Gary has proven himself capable of keeping his eye on the ball and doggedly pursuing the goal of a new gym for years. Attempt after attempt fell through either because the city or neighborhood blocked the siting of a new gym at a given locale. Gary dropped a LOT of coin on studies during those attempts to please the city and/or neighborhoods but to no avail. All the previous attempts were leasing with lease partners some of whom backed out. He finally just bought a piece of ground so he wouldn't be dependent on another flakey lease partner. He then ponied up everything he has in the world and then some to make the new PRG happen. If it doesn't succeed, he and his family will not fair well. He has, as the expression goes, "run it out" on this venue and that requires no less balls than it does on rock. So I'm inclined to cut him a lot of slack, even if I ultimately don't like the choices he makes relative to his business...

I didn't take it, but my partner once went over a roof on Metamorphosis (5.10a R) in Eldorado when the route actually went right around the roof. The roof was a one-way move stranding him on a 1" ledge with no more moves available. He was out about 40' off an old lost arrow. After about three tries at moving up he jumped. This was back in the days of hip belays and his belayer hadn't braced a knee against the wall and so got banged into the wall good resulting in being stunned for long enough to let the rope run. That resulted in third degree burns and a longer fall that was stopped by the knot I tied in their rope to join them after arriving late. I measured to the knot afterwards and it was 110'. He stopped about 15' short of the big ledge, but said it was the softest fall he'd ever taken though he did scrape the back of his thumb on the way back up from all that rope stretch. Our partner on the otherhand needed a trip to the ER and was done climbing for awhile.

Well, I've been climbing at PRG since it was over on 26 in Beaverton and I've followed Gary's 4-5 year saga to site/finance a new gym pretty closely and feel I owe it to him to see if things don't change a bit for the better. So I signed up for a month at PRG and will see if anything changes - I'm headed for Red Rocks (Epinephrine) when it runs out in mid-Nov. and then I'll decide what to do for the winter. I'm hoping to see things change a bit personally, but it could be that it is actually working for them from a business perspective and Gary actually has put everything on the line building this gym so that's cool too if that's the way it works out.

Hi Carolyn, My old partner recently moved back to Hudson,WI across the river from Moscow, ID. I suspect he's always looking for unsuspecting victims, I mean partners to climb with. He teachs at UWRF and I believe is doing some sort of study at an area called Red Wing. I'll pm you with his email. Give a shout the next time you come through the Gorge/PDX and we'll take you to Beacon (and give you a windsurfing session if you'd like).

Hi Michael, Welcome aboard as well. I have to second Bill's comments relative to the appropriateness of the forum for discussing PRG issues. This is our community such as it is and it provides you and Gary with something most business owners spend a lot of money to acquire: a window into the marketplace. It may not always be a clear window, you may not always like what you see, and this window may not always look in on your full demographic; but it provides valuable insight and feedback nonetheless. I would encourage you folks to take advantage of it. Bill is also a business owner and I suspect he and his partners would love the opportunity to learn from their customers in the way you can here. Bill already mentioned my discussion with Gary, but let me rehash it here for a moment: First off, Bill is not a "pussie" as his self-deprecating comments might suggest (or if he is one, he's an old, bold, sandbagging pussie that takes long runouts over dubious terrain [you've all been warned]) - so I think in seconding my desire to see a laptrack up the overhanging wall at all times is not coming from the "can't get up those routes" perspective. And to be completely honest, and with no disrespect, I come to the gym to train, not climb - for me that happens outside on real rocks - so I'm looking for a training circuit that includes [at least one] a steep, overhanging jug route that I can do laps on. I'll do the hard routes as well, but warming up and cooling down, and more important, for endurance, I'm always going to be after yardage on steep walls. The day I came in and saw Gary recently I counted the number of routes under 5.10 in the "big room" from the corner right of the storage closet on around to the bouldering entrance and it was only 7 out of 37; and the ratio of 5.11-5.12 to 5.10 was fairly steep out of the 30. I don't know your demographics, but pretty much that leaves folks learning to climb with a big gap between the learning routes in the area you first walk into on entering and all these tougher climbs in the "big room". I would imagine that makes it somewhat intimidating and less-than-inclusive for people trying to move their skills up from the 5.7 range. Routes in the 5.8-.9 range are "dual-purpose" from the standpoint of providing a viable path for folks just learning to progress and as endurance laptracks for people trying to get back in shape or work on their endurance for multi-pitch routes. So my specifc request to Gary, that I've repeated ever since the gym was over on 26 in Beaverton, is to always have a 5.8-.9 "jug route" on each major wall section - particularly the the steep ones. You'll know it's right if you can get up and down it a couple of times without touching ground. And just to reiterate, we aren't making the request simply as old guys that can't cut it on the grades. Bill, Karsten, and I have recently put up (with assistance from Jim Opdyke (p1) and Marco Fedrizzi (p2) a multi-pitch route that goes at either 5.11c R or 5.10c R- C2/3. Bill and I alone have 60 years experience and a bunch of FA/FFA's between us and have a pretty good feel for what makes sense relative to keeping a life-long act together with climbing. Also (not speaking for Bill), in my thirty years I've had to occasionally focus on other things in life and then, on returning to climbing, had to come way back to get in shape again and have a pretty good sense of the process - and those laptracks are key to doing it quickly. That this is a prennial request I have to make sometimes leaves me to wonder if your route setters aren't simply entertaining themselves rather than focusing on the needs of your clients. But, then again, I could be completely wrong and you guys get by just fine on a stable base of the high-end gym/sport climber set.

I know the crew involved (if it is in fact the same line) and they have worked that route over several years and if they resorted to a bolt then there was no other conceivable option - these aren't rap bolters, they are bold and gifted free climbers who wouldn't do it otherwise.

Any of you folks know anything about the prominent fin or rock exactly 1 mile east of Multnomah Falls and fairly high up? It looks curiously good, but then so has a bunch of other features I've hiked into only to find choss.

The latest fauna find out at Beacon today - a scorpion. Whodaguessed? Not a big one, but it was a bit of a surprise...

The French boredom threshold is no doubt a bit lower than in the U.S. - or they just figured out a sure-fire answer to their access problems. Who knows, maybe trad climbing will even return to its former definition of just "climbing"...

Anyone game...