high_on_rock

This thread has turned in to spray and name-calling. As a newbie ice climber I am reading through to develop an answer as to the safety, usability, and technical issue differences between leashes and non. All I am getting is an argument between opinions of the ethics. Can anyone summarize the technical, safety and usability issues of the difference for us hacks that are staying out of the fray?

OK folks, how do I view the youtube vids above?

Another aspect to look at is the number of lawsuits verses the number of outragious jury verdicts. I am just making up numbers here, but if we assume that there are 100 lawsuits filed statwide per day, 50 states, 250 days per year, equals 1.25 million suits per year nationwide (again, made up numbers). What do we hear of every year, 10 jury verdicts that sound completely outragious? I am not sure the system is broken.

I fully agree with MattP. The information I continually receive is that the cost of lawsuits has consistently increased about 5% per year, while the insurance rates doubled and tripled in a couple years. There is a correlation, but no cause and effect. This also correlates with the republicans gaining power; cause and effect? Also correlates with the insurance companies taking a big whack on 9/11; cause and effect?

I hate to distract a thread, but have people taken good falls on the ball nutz? I love them, but have not tested them. I imagine that once I fall on it, it will be a permanant piece of the rock (if it holds.) Any experience? E

Kit has no gear issues. Between the sk8ting princess, pinguy, and my gear closet, she could climb forever and never spend a buck. Life is easy for Kit.

Jamin, You obviously have balls big enough to do amazing things. I believe that the consensus of this thread is that you now need to work on the brain. If you look at the amazing things that some of our greatest climbers have accomplished, most wise men would have stayed home and not taken the risks; your balls would come in handy at those times. On the otherhand, they took those risks without endangering others, and only when those risks were necessary to accomplish their goals. With more training ahead of time, your ambition could lead you to great things to which the people on this site would honor you rather than think you the fool they do now. There are many here who would gladly help you learn what is necessary, but you would first have to accept the fact that there is more to learn, and that “unnecessary risk” is by definition unnecessary. Until then, I applaud your willingness to take those risks while solo, as I believe every adult has the right to control their own life, and thus their own demise. Good luck sir, if you ever need a mentor let me know.

Kit, Sk8r and her pinhead husband are the gear junkies of the area. You need look no farther than their house for all the advice that you and forty more people could ever use. The hard part will be getting Pindude to quit advising long enough for you to pay. Both very great people, up on the latest of everything, and know their gear. You are in the care of the "gear jedi," follow, and you will buy!

I fully agree with MattP. After my first 5 years of climbing I had a total of $600 invested in gear and clothing. the same amount my ex wife spent per year on her hair. And Kit, remember that you have friends in Spokane who have deep gear buckets that you can borrow from.

so, are we all waiting to hear about Kit's climbing adventure?

I am spokane so not much use to you right now, but in about a month I will be spending most weekends at vantage and you are welcome to join friends and me. PM me your email if interested, and I will just put you on the mailing list. Eric

Spring? We start climbing vantage in about mid to late January and you will be invited. E

you're my hero buddy!

About 5 years ago I climbed Cascade Falls in Alberta; not a highly technical route but just my speed. Does anyone know a site that I can check the ice conditions at CF currently?

During the bush years malpractice rates have tripled, while malpractice verdicts have continued their long term steady rise of about five percent per year, so the two do not seem to be related. Seems to me that the republicans are trying to push tort reform while they have the power. I fully support basic care for all, Cuba seems to manage such a system on it’s limited funding. Seems like our rich country could do as well. People put down the Canadian system because you have to wait in line for health care. We would probably have longer lines too if we let everyone get into the line rather than shove a third of the people out of line and tell them “sorry.” Capitalism requires someone to suffer for the benefit of others. It requires one person skimming some of the wealth produced by someone else; the more you can skim the more wealth you create. For years we have outsourced the suffering to other countries for our riches, by allowing them to produce for low dollars what we then sell for high dollars. This does not work for health care any better than it would for education. Imagine an educational system wherein you had to pay private schools for your education, the poor would get nothing. Clinton tried bringing in healthcare back in the old days and got hammered for it. I personally think the country is ready for it now, and would love to see our next round of democrats take up the cause.

Nice thread. Snow is god's gift to hygiene. By the way, how does one get to meet Muffy?

I have owned four bivi sacks in the past 10 years and have given them all away. Buying a bivi is much like buying a tent, there are specialized features that do not work in all seasons and conditions. If you buy one that seems to solve everything, you are back to the weight of a small tent with much less comfort. I have foregone the bivi, and now just carry a tarp. If it is nice I am on the tarp, if it rains I am under it. Bugs out, carry a bug hood and tough it out. If I were going to buy another bivi, I would spend the money for a bibler, and buy their basic model without tent poles. Buy the long so that you can put some stuff inside at your feet to keep it dry. Just my thoughts. Eric

You might also want to coordinate with the guy who is going to redrill and rebolt the route after you finish, and discuss what type of bolts to use on the second and third drillings to make it easier and cheaper for the both of you. Could be easier to merely arm wrestle to see which of you gets to impose their will over the other rather than continually drilling and filling holes in a nice rock. Communication before action?

Kit, Steve is in fact a big shot in the Spokane Mountianeers, and has been a mentor to most in spokane in the last 15 years. The local club is different from the westside counterpart in many respects, beginning with price; a mere $30 per year or so. Stay in touch with Pinhead, feel free to contact me if you need anything, and we will get you started. If you have time and want to get out and adventure during the christmas break, I can get you started with some basics in the Spokane area and we will continue to jack up your life from there. If you are willing, we will jack up your life. We have all the gear to loan you from the beginning, and we can advise on purchases. Don't spend much until you talk to us. I recommend MtGear for everything, but have a stake in that recommendation and will freely admit I am bias. If you need anything contact me. I will PM you my contact info. Eric

Nice find, I just checked out the couchsurfing.com and that is a cool idea. Perhaps cc.com should start a couchsurfing forum among members? Cool idea, may get me some showers when I head to red rocks.

For one week cc.com represented climbing to the eyes of the world. Donation being sent. E

I would personally like to see the shiny cc.com, with the anger and insults limited to Spray. Just my opinion.

May have to wait and ask them why when they pop their heads out of the caves, but there could be numerous reasons for not descending the south route. If there is a whiteout, they could follow their tracks back to where they came, but perhaps could not have determined where the route to the south side was. Could have been the wind or other weather conditions that got them to cave in and wait out some weather, weather that just did not clear. When going up a mountain it is typically easy to figure out which way to go – Up! When standing on top, every direction is down, but picking the right direction from the summit ridge is more difficult if you are disorientated in fog. The one direction that they would have been sure of is where their tracks are. Looking at the “belay” cave, it did not look as though they dug that intending to stay a long time, possibly just to wait out some weather. The weather got worse, dig another cave to get out of the weather. All speculation of course, but those would be very reasonable explanations for the evidence being found and reported. Could be other reasons, could be other explanations. Does that help?

Kit, every route is somewhat different. There are some that hold heavy snow loads for avalanche and some do not. Some you need covered with snow/ice otherwise there is too much rock fall. Some are rotten rock, that the only real way they can be climbed safely is if there is ice/snow covering to hold the rock together. Some routes you don’t want to be on with other people climbing above you as they can kick stuff loose on you. Some routes crowd up in the “season” so much that the crowd itself is the danger. Sometimes you weigh the extra issues of weather in the off season against the crowd in the on season. Sometimes you want to ski, sometimes you want to ice climb, sometimes you want mixed rock/ice. Picking the season and picking the conditions is a decision for each climber and each route; and everything else are merely factors to consider and risks to weigh. Does that make sense?

Pure speculation.It sounds to me like a likely scenario is that they made the summit with Kelly hurting an arm somewhere along the way. Got to the summit and the weather did not permit them to go further and backed down the north face to get out of the weather. Dug in the belay cave to wait out the weather. Finally decided to go for help, went left to dig in a better cave to leave Kelley, then went for help, either up or down. Pure speculation, but sounds like a reasonable explanation for the two caves.