high_on_rock

About 5 years ago I climbed Cascade Falls in Alberta; not a highly technical route but just my speed. Does anyone know a site that I can check the ice conditions at CF currently?

During the bush years malpractice rates have tripled, while malpractice verdicts have continued their long term steady rise of about five percent per year, so the two do not seem to be related. Seems to me that the republicans are trying to push tort reform while they have the power. I fully support basic care for all, Cuba seems to manage such a system on it’s limited funding. Seems like our rich country could do as well. People put down the Canadian system because you have to wait in line for health care. We would probably have longer lines too if we let everyone get into the line rather than shove a third of the people out of line and tell them “sorry.” Capitalism requires someone to suffer for the benefit of others. It requires one person skimming some of the wealth produced by someone else; the more you can skim the more wealth you create. For years we have outsourced the suffering to other countries for our riches, by allowing them to produce for low dollars what we then sell for high dollars. This does not work for health care any better than it would for education. Imagine an educational system wherein you had to pay private schools for your education, the poor would get nothing. Clinton tried bringing in healthcare back in the old days and got hammered for it. I personally think the country is ready for it now, and would love to see our next round of democrats take up the cause.

Nice thread. Snow is god's gift to hygiene. By the way, how does one get to meet Muffy?

I have owned four bivi sacks in the past 10 years and have given them all away. Buying a bivi is much like buying a tent, there are specialized features that do not work in all seasons and conditions. If you buy one that seems to solve everything, you are back to the weight of a small tent with much less comfort. I have foregone the bivi, and now just carry a tarp. If it is nice I am on the tarp, if it rains I am under it. Bugs out, carry a bug hood and tough it out. If I were going to buy another bivi, I would spend the money for a bibler, and buy their basic model without tent poles. Buy the long so that you can put some stuff inside at your feet to keep it dry. Just my thoughts. Eric

You might also want to coordinate with the guy who is going to redrill and rebolt the route after you finish, and discuss what type of bolts to use on the second and third drillings to make it easier and cheaper for the both of you. Could be easier to merely arm wrestle to see which of you gets to impose their will over the other rather than continually drilling and filling holes in a nice rock. Communication before action?

Kit, Steve is in fact a big shot in the Spokane Mountianeers, and has been a mentor to most in spokane in the last 15 years. The local club is different from the westside counterpart in many respects, beginning with price; a mere $30 per year or so. Stay in touch with Pinhead, feel free to contact me if you need anything, and we will get you started. If you have time and want to get out and adventure during the christmas break, I can get you started with some basics in the Spokane area and we will continue to jack up your life from there. If you are willing, we will jack up your life. We have all the gear to loan you from the beginning, and we can advise on purchases. Don't spend much until you talk to us. I recommend MtGear for everything, but have a stake in that recommendation and will freely admit I am bias. If you need anything contact me. I will PM you my contact info. Eric

Nice find, I just checked out the couchsurfing.com and that is a cool idea. Perhaps cc.com should start a couchsurfing forum among members? Cool idea, may get me some showers when I head to red rocks.

For one week cc.com represented climbing to the eyes of the world. Donation being sent. E

I would personally like to see the shiny cc.com, with the anger and insults limited to Spray. Just my opinion.

May have to wait and ask them why when they pop their heads out of the caves, but there could be numerous reasons for not descending the south route. If there is a whiteout, they could follow their tracks back to where they came, but perhaps could not have determined where the route to the south side was. Could have been the wind or other weather conditions that got them to cave in and wait out some weather, weather that just did not clear. When going up a mountain it is typically easy to figure out which way to go – Up! When standing on top, every direction is down, but picking the right direction from the summit ridge is more difficult if you are disorientated in fog. The one direction that they would have been sure of is where their tracks are. Looking at the “belay” cave, it did not look as though they dug that intending to stay a long time, possibly just to wait out some weather. The weather got worse, dig another cave to get out of the weather. All speculation of course, but those would be very reasonable explanations for the evidence being found and reported. Could be other reasons, could be other explanations. Does that help?

Kit, every route is somewhat different. There are some that hold heavy snow loads for avalanche and some do not. Some you need covered with snow/ice otherwise there is too much rock fall. Some are rotten rock, that the only real way they can be climbed safely is if there is ice/snow covering to hold the rock together. Some routes you don’t want to be on with other people climbing above you as they can kick stuff loose on you. Some routes crowd up in the “season” so much that the crowd itself is the danger. Sometimes you weigh the extra issues of weather in the off season against the crowd in the on season. Sometimes you want to ski, sometimes you want to ice climb, sometimes you want mixed rock/ice. Picking the season and picking the conditions is a decision for each climber and each route; and everything else are merely factors to consider and risks to weigh. Does that make sense?

Pure speculation.It sounds to me like a likely scenario is that they made the summit with Kelly hurting an arm somewhere along the way. Got to the summit and the weather did not permit them to go further and backed down the north face to get out of the weather. Dug in the belay cave to wait out the weather. Finally decided to go for help, went left to dig in a better cave to leave Kelley, then went for help, either up or down. Pure speculation, but sounds like a reasonable explanation for the two caves.

An injured arm would possibly explain why there was one glove left in the cave, and partially explain why at least one of the ice tools was left. It is my understanding that all of the gear was found in the cave where the body was not. Is that correct? Do we know yet what was found in the cave with the body?

The sheriff also implied that climbers would typically not be cutting the rope with a knife. In light of the popularity of “Touching the Void” and it’s “cutting the rope” implications, Just wanted to tell some of the non-climbers that there are often reasons to cut off pieces of the climbing rope, so not to read too much into that comment by the Sheriff. Climbers often cut pieces off the rope for anchors and such, or merely to make two shorter ropes out of a long one, so that cut rope may not mean much. E

Thanks for teh update JFMCTLAW, I am reading

Ice axes or ice tools. In that snow, ice tools would be pretty short and usless??

Come on folks, no one chose to die, all are there because they want to live. The next question is whether they will find one, two, or three in the snowcave within the next couple hours? Would they prefer hot chocolate or hot food? Gonna be a great story when they tell it! E

So perhaps we should change the country motto to, "Land of those forced into doing what is good for them, home of the risk adverse." Ban motorcycles, ban swimming without lifejackets (as they are starting to do in some rivers); ban alcohol; crack down on jaywalkers; ... I personally like independence, I feel that facing and managing risk adds to life, and want to live where I can determine the course of my life. I could climb with sat-phones, radios, an extra weeks worth of fuel, a warmer sleeping bag, ...; each only weighing an extra little bit; or I can take my chance and follow the "speed is life" concept and go light enough to survive the worst case scenario rather than be comfortable in such a situation. Short of some unknown injury, I assume that the climbers are probably a little uncomfortable right now but still alive and well. Having the beacon would not have got them rescued any sooner, as they were having to survive the worst case scenario first. Facing risk can be character building. I value your opinion that you would choose to take the extra electronic gadget, and I value those who choose otherwise. Freedom dictates that we support choices we would not make, and the only way I can be free is to enforce your right to be free. Peace, brotherhood, and Freedom!

Society has become completely risk adverse. Growing up, seat belt use was unheard of. They then became required for children, then became required for adults. We now have absolute requirements for how children are to be buckled, how they are to be belted, and which seat they are to ride in, and what that seat should be. Do you think it will stop here, or do you think this will continue until all children, then adults will have to wear helmets in cars? In many cities one will be ticketed for not wearing a helmet while riding a bicycle, or even roller-skating, would anyone have predicted this 20 years ago? “Land of the Free, Home of the Brave;” but don’t skate without a helmet or you will be punished! At some point the additional “safety” requirements become more of a bother than provide actual safety. Where that line is to be drawn is an argument not a fact, and each will have their own opinion. In mountaineering, one can always fill their pack with more and more safety equipment, but at some point the extra weight and reliance on that equipment detracts from the safety and purpose for being there. We each make the decision for ourselves based on experience, strengths, knowledge, and risk assessment. Please don’t force others to agree with your opinion, nor should they try to force you to do things their way. Independence and reliance on ones self is a key concept in mountaineering, let’s not take that away. “Land of the Free, Home of the Brave.” Eric

Folks, I have a good feeling that tomorrow is the day. There will be enough clearing that SAR is going to get up and find the lone climber; and the weather is going to clear enough that the other two are going to pop their heads out of the cave and be seen. Whether the two are still on the mountain or have blindly descended into a forest somewhere, tomorrow is going to be the day. My hat goes off to the SAR folks who, as volunteers, have risked their wellbeing for days. It is that type of giving attitude, that kind of volunteerism that makes the climbing community a group of beautiful people. Keep the good thoughts, tomorrow will be the day! Eric

I am having trouble leaving my tv and keyboard today just waiting on news. Last info I had was that rescuers were digging in near summit due to weather, any updates on that or on current weather? Any actual information as to depth of snowfall creating the avalanche conditions? Any word on the two climbers spotted on the north side this morning? Peace, hope, and brotherhood everyone.

Jon's question sounds reasonable, just seeking information. Is it the weather or rules keeping people from going higher. If it is the weather, sad; if it is rules then lets get some freelance climbers to climb.

News just reported that the one in the cave is from Texas

Uff da, perhaps this has already been answered but I did not want to read 8 pages of thread to find out, but is this show going to make the circuit so that we can all see it? Anyone know? E

I asked a darn similar question recently and received this advice: http://cascadeclimbers.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/612019/page/2#Post612019