olyclimber

Well, you go on with your bad self and "unionize" the ChiComms, smart guy. If i knew a way...except I could call it making China a Democracy. My ideal of a union is not some communist mechanism, but rather people coming together and standing up for all people. I know that unions here in the States haven't exactly performed as such all the time, but they have had their moments in history...not unlike a nation coming together to elect a president. Some Chinese people tried to come together and stand up for all the people. The outcome was not so good. I'm sure attempts to stand up and unionize would fare better though. I see you have gotten on JayB's Bus of Pessimism. Come now, join hands and sing "We are the World" with me.

no shit? really? golly. I would have pointed that out even more explicitly for porter but he already was so mean, calling me "worldly" in such a sarcastic tone, and saying I don't know how China "conducts business" and all. I am sure YOU can explain it all to Porter though, since you vote and think like him and must be much smarter, and can help him in his crusade to unionize China. STFU KK, you know I love you. When I pass out party arm bands, you'll wear them with pride. Or else.

The quite visible hand of the communist party.

Well, you go on with your bad self and "unionize" the ChiComms, smart guy. If i knew a way...except I could call it making China a Democracy. My ideal of a union is not some communist mechanism, but rather people coming together and standing up for all people. I know that unions here in the States haven't exactly performed as such all the time, but they have had their moments in history...not unlike a nation coming together to elect a president.

Who said that? It wasn't me. You are using absolutes that remind me of the Bushites. The arbitrary point (unionization)you picked is more then 100 years into our industrialization. Why do you need to have everything be OK right now? At what cost will you try to force this? Economics involve the redistribution of scarce resources for a desired outcome. Because I do not share your timetable I am evil? I have been involved in 3rd world economic development. I have sweeted beside them and seen them rise out of mud floored shacks to apartments. Sub-standard by your estimation I am sure. Now they are sending their children to school. There is much more to come. And they had to kiss the devil (large corporations) for awhile. It takes time and patience. This is NOT the same as giving in and giving up. Take a deep breath. I'm breathing fine Bug. My apologies to you, but I took this comment the wrong way apparently: "These people had NO hope before they were being "exploited"." I just don't see why it seems your are belittling (with quotes) what is exploitation? What EXACTLY was their situation before they became industrialized? Subsistence farmers? I don't know, perhaps KK will step in an school me. I'm not just talking about China here...all of SW Asia that has "sweatshop" type stuff going on.

You just said you weren't clueless then you proved otherwise. 1) China is a communist country, not a capitalist one. Your arguments above (to which I responded directly) were talking about the "next step of capitalism" or some such crap. Pull your head out of your American-centric butt. 2) Unions can exist in a free country, like the United States, but not in Red China. Again, head, pull-out. Thx. Well thanks! I didn't know I was so un-worldly. You certainly schooled me. Where is China again? They are communist??? REALLY??? Now, now. I was being sarcastic, I didn't think I would have to spell that out. You don't know much about how China conducts business, do you? Sure, they are "Communist", but it isn't exactly as completely state run enterprise. But you know all this because you're smart, right? You know all about how China conducts business. Which is beside the point...why do sweatshops exist? Because there is a market for the cheapest goods, and the market doesn't care if people get exploited. Only people care. Well....some people care, apparently.

Newsflash: China, the number one country for manufacturing cheap shit with dirt-cheap labor, is a communist country. Capitalism? Unions? Are you joking? Does Tiananmen mean anything to you? I see. Communism caused sweatshops. Unions caused sweatshops! OMFG! FORGIVE MY IGNORANCE!!!!

I hope Ming-Lee can forgive me for thinking that the exploitation of people is a bad thing. Do you want me to post some pictures of children working in sweatshops ?

btw, i'm joking, i love you all. such interesting points of view! I never really thought I would hear someone call a sweatshop a wonderful thing! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweatshop I guess I'm just caught up on the next step of our wonderful process of capitalism. And to deny that organized labor is a part of that process??? I don't get that. Are we not using the United States as the ideal for capitalism for these developing countries to use? Did someone miss a US history lesson? There are those that would seem to want to remain in the current stage of exploitation forever rather than talk about change. Bug, sure you claim that I pick a "arbitrary" point in our own history, but isn't the next step? First you get exploited, then you realize you're getting exploited and do something about it? kk, I'm an idealist, but i'm not clueless.

I don't see the point of continuing this conversation with myself with a bunch sweat shop loving exploiters. I mean, its one thing, for me to participate in the the exploitation by buying plastic crap, but for you losers to revel in and boast about how the exploitation of other people is "just part of this great process of ours" is inexcusable.

Easy...it comes by transfering some of profit from the 1st world. In case you didn't know, many products you pay 10 dollars for only cost 1 dollar to make. So where is the other 9 dollars going Jay?

Its the Hotel California. Delete the CC.com cookie in your browser. (using the browser to do it, not the "My Cookies" link below)

this whole paragraph reminds me of the democracy in Iraq. We just need to stay the course, and soon they'll be out of the sweatshop and driving Lexuses

No, i do all my thinking online. I really don't know that people had NO hope before they got exploited...i disagree with that entirely. You're basically saying the exploitation is a great thing. I don't think it is. I'm right. You're wrong. What don't you understand about this? I'm saying they should fight for a fairer wage. What is wrong with that? Admittedly they probably won't. You're also agreeing with me! I'm saying I support these people's right to have organized labor. Did the United States NOT do this? Did it not result in improving our quality of life? BUT, because something wrong happened to us in history, is does that make it all good for someone else now? What you are saying, for instance, is that well...the development of the third Reich and its subsequent destruction is a "natural process" that many countries will go through. can we learn NOTHING from history when it comes to suffering, so as to prevent it? you truly must be a buddhist to think such thoughts.

do you know how to suffer carl?

By the way Jay, I fail to see how Kristof's article is relevant to what I was talking about in my conversation with myself. I was talking about the right of sweatshop workers to organize. Kristof is talking about "banning products". I never argued with myself about that. I think Chuck is correct...organized labor is just another market force. it also isn't a silver bullet. another market force is disgusted consumers. but, as I said before to myself, that is not a reliable force. people will always go to the lower price at wallmart. the dollar has little in the way of morality. i do think that Kristof is full of it. he has taken the position of being to intimidated by the problem, and just declaring it "to hard to fix", and I assume to just continue on in a "kill or be killed" world. little doubt that that will happen, especially with that attitude. if you don't believe you can do something, you never will. but then there is an easy answer: "The Buddha’s discovery of the solution to the problem of suffering began with the recognition that life is suffering." Suffer onward!

Sweatshops = kewl

I addressed many of your points in my conversation with myself. I skimmed Kristof's article, seems to have taken your own pessimistic view of things (or did you take his). "Suffering, get used it. " What sort of B.S. answer is this?? WE CAN'T DO ANYTHING BECAUSE THEN SOMEELSE WILL SUFFER. You seem to be stuck in a rut there Jay, along with Kristof. Paralysis. Do nothing! Wait for the invisible hand! IT WILL CURE ALL!!! And why are we limited the conversation to just those that are exploited at this point? If the exploitation will move else where, will not the cause of organized labor? A round the world shuffle of misery and relief? (or relief and misery, if you take what appears to be your own outlook). Why would you deny these people the right of organized labor that the United States enjoyed during a time that it needed it? Are you telling me that the U.S. NEVER needed organized labor and that all the advancements made by organized labor are rubbish?

No, I was talking to myself. The conversation was with myself. I ended it. As far as yourself, I don't doubt you have honorable (misguided) intentions. You may even believe you are right, just like Bush believes he has "made our country more secure from terrorists"....I don't know, can't read your thoughts. Why don't you just go ahead and read that article yourself and sum up your point. When you're done, I have some other stuff for you to read.

Perhaps their slogan should not be "Run with Us" but rather "Run from us"?

AWESOME! Man I loves me some fall desert sunshine. Thanks for the TR. Great shot!

the cool take away JayB has gifted me with from this conversation is that no matter if you are 1st, 2nd, or 3rd world, no matter your wealth or lack of it....we are bound together by suffering. now if i could just learn to deal with my suffering as Gap/Nike/etc factory workers have... http://web.singnet.com.sg/~alankhoo/Noble.htm its also hip! maybe I'll start riding a single gear bike next.

Chet Guthrie, is that some poke at Arlo, the well known communist sympathizer?

Thankfully for who? For consumers of their cheap plastic crap, so that Wallmart can stay afloat? Let face it, we here enjoy lower prices at the expense of others. Lets hope they don't figure that out! The moment they start demanding a quality of life equal to ours (maybe in the form of a union) we are screwed. So i guess its kill or be killed. Long live cheap plastic crap! In the case of "the government keeping the workers pay down" isn't starting a union akin to a democratic revolution? Would that not be a good thing? Are these governments just doing it because its profitable to keep the man down? Oh...it is our friend, the invisible hand. What would happen to the scores of millions of people who use the wages that they earn making the cheap plastic crap to provide themselves and their families with food, clothing, and shelter if no one bought it anymore? All that would happen is that we'd pay slightly more for a given set of goods until someone combined marginally lower labor costs with increased automation somewhere else and provided the same goods at a lower price, and they'd starve while some other country reaped the benefits of the trade and foreign direct investment that they relinquished. Don't look for the Chinese to chose door number two anytime soon. If I was concerned for anyone, I'd be concerned for the American or Euro who is convinced that the accident of his birth in a first world nation entitles him to a certain standard of living no matter what. Don't expect Ming-Li and Rahesh to cry any tears for Chet Guthrie because he can't parlay his high-school diploma into $80K a year with full bene's because they are working too hard over there. so you're saying lets go with the status quo because change is HARD and MESSY. and if we change it is will just screw up someone else's life. SOMEONE has to suffer, why change things. let the people who obviously enjoy suffering continue on. well thats a great attitude Jay. well, its not like our talking about it here is even going to make a scratch in anything. from my 1st world throne amid my plastic crap, why would i want to change anything. and you're right, they probably won't change anything. and unions are the root of all evil. and the invisible hand will care for all. conversation over.