olyclimber

forum upgrade? what forum upgrade?

at times our country sounds very much like that definition.

i see...they hate unions because they are one. brilliant.

There's nothing democratic about unions. nice sound bite. So, why do you think the Chinese Communist party opposes them?

anyway jay, i'll await your response (as long as that takes). i actually suspect that we are not far off from one another...if you have built a profile of what you think my political beliefs are, i would be interested to hear what that is. what i say post here is often done in order to spur the conversation along, not to exemplify my political views. Its true I try to maintain ideals in a less than ideal world. Its true I'm not a big fan of exploitation. It true I believe while humans are doomed to repeat history, i think they can also learn from it. These might be ways we differ, I don't know. I have no doubt you are capable of compassion. i think one idea where we seem to differ is in unions and their place in a capitalist society. i may be errantly reading that difference into your posts, i don't know. i just don't understand why you appear to be so vehemently against unions as a mechanism within a capitalist society, especially when they played such an important roll in our own country...our own country that is held them up to be an example of a successful capitalist society. maybe you believe a "developing" people will never have a use of a union? Can you prove this historically? why did our own country "need" them? Are the changes they brought about negative? of course i have my own opinions (and information or misinformation) about these questions, but I'm very curious about your opinion. i'm also curious as to how these developing countries are going to avoid repeating history. also, remember to vote.

I would LOVE to analyze something for you Jay. Was it your equation of unions to communism? Well, I think you're wrong to make that equation. But maybe I have a different definition than you have of what exactly a union is (or rather, what an optimal union is). KK pointed out that unions can exist outside of communism. Would you agree? Or are they ,in your eyes, little communist sleeper cells? "I would LOVE to analyze something for you Jay. Was it your equation of unions to communism? Well, I think you're wrong to make that equation." Since I've never equated the two, this is a curious statement. Why did the Communist party in China - and virtually every other communist state - outlaw unions? Conversely, why was George Meany* a strident anti-communist? *Help. I can see Porter's response now... snide "UR SO SMART" with an attempt at humor which falls as flat as his "argument". who is the little bitch now?

I'm not reading that link till you answer my question above. as for why the communist party outlawed unions? because the people might be expecting democracy next. duh. it is the same empowerment thing that i believe is a positive element of unions. not unlike our (the American people) ability to overthrow our government every four years, even though most of us seem to have given up on that concept (most of the voting public) i apologize for speculating that you made that equation.

as the saying goes about arguing on the internet...well, I can't say it any more since I have taken on the role of compassionate healer of the worlds woes.

because, in your heart of hearts, you know i iz teh winnar. conversely, that would make you a loser. but i won't bring that up. I WON'T FIGHT AN UNARMED MAN IN A BATTLE OF WITS!!!!!!1 ppsstt..its....ah nevermind

Ha...I OUT DEBATED ALL OF YOU. LOSERS! I AM THE VICTOR. I guess that makes me.....

What I would like for you do now JayB is chart the timeline of these peoples road to prosperity now that we have given them the luxery of sweatshops. What is next for them? Go ahead, answer.

"If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face—for ever." I'm outing you as a buddhist right now! \ pssst. it's Orwell. Thanks! Now I really think you're smart!

i make you feel grow taller. for you, no charge.

"If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face—for ever." I'm outing you as a buddhist right now!

I would LOVE to analyze something for you Jay. Was it your equation of unions to communism? Well, I think you're wrong to make that equation. But maybe I have a different definition than you have of what exactly a union is (or rather, what an optimal union is). KK pointed out that unions can exist outside of communism. Would you agree? Or are they ,in your eyes, little communist sleeper cells?

you sad sack. but here is the kicker! I believe that one day you're believe in a brighter future.

you see...it doesn't matter what you think. its about the children. a hope for a new day. and micheal jackson.

now now KK, We are the world, we are the children We are the ones who make a brighter day So lets start giving Theres a choice we're making We're saving out own lives its true we'll make a better day Just you and me Send them your heart so they'll know that someone cares And their lives will be stronger and free As God has shown us by turning stones to brend So we all must lend a helping hand

Your baiting isn't going to work JayB. Read the above conversation I had with myself while others shouted into the hall.

Well, you go on with your bad self and "unionize" the ChiComms, smart guy. If i knew a way...except I could call it making China a Democracy. My ideal of a union is not some communist mechanism, but rather people coming together and standing up for all people. I know that unions here in the States haven't exactly performed as such all the time, but they have had their moments in history...not unlike a nation coming together to elect a president. Some Chinese people tried to come together and stand up for all the people. The outcome was not so good. I'm sure attempts to stand up and unionize would fare better though. I see you have gotten on JayB's Bus of Pessimism. Come now, join hands and sing "We are the World" with me.

no shit? really? golly. I would have pointed that out even more explicitly for porter but he already was so mean, calling me "worldly" in such a sarcastic tone, and saying I don't know how China "conducts business" and all. I am sure YOU can explain it all to Porter though, since you vote and think like him and must be much smarter, and can help him in his crusade to unionize China. STFU KK, you know I love you. When I pass out party arm bands, you'll wear them with pride. Or else.

The quite visible hand of the communist party.

Well, you go on with your bad self and "unionize" the ChiComms, smart guy. If i knew a way...except I could call it making China a Democracy. My ideal of a union is not some communist mechanism, but rather people coming together and standing up for all people. I know that unions here in the States haven't exactly performed as such all the time, but they have had their moments in history...not unlike a nation coming together to elect a president.

Who said that? It wasn't me. You are using absolutes that remind me of the Bushites. The arbitrary point (unionization)you picked is more then 100 years into our industrialization. Why do you need to have everything be OK right now? At what cost will you try to force this? Economics involve the redistribution of scarce resources for a desired outcome. Because I do not share your timetable I am evil? I have been involved in 3rd world economic development. I have sweeted beside them and seen them rise out of mud floored shacks to apartments. Sub-standard by your estimation I am sure. Now they are sending their children to school. There is much more to come. And they had to kiss the devil (large corporations) for awhile. It takes time and patience. This is NOT the same as giving in and giving up. Take a deep breath. I'm breathing fine Bug. My apologies to you, but I took this comment the wrong way apparently: "These people had NO hope before they were being "exploited"." I just don't see why it seems your are belittling (with quotes) what is exploitation? What EXACTLY was their situation before they became industrialized? Subsistence farmers? I don't know, perhaps KK will step in an school me. I'm not just talking about China here...all of SW Asia that has "sweatshop" type stuff going on.

You just said you weren't clueless then you proved otherwise. 1) China is a communist country, not a capitalist one. Your arguments above (to which I responded directly) were talking about the "next step of capitalism" or some such crap. Pull your head out of your American-centric butt. 2) Unions can exist in a free country, like the United States, but not in Red China. Again, head, pull-out. Thx. Well thanks! I didn't know I was so un-worldly. You certainly schooled me. Where is China again? They are communist??? REALLY??? Now, now. I was being sarcastic, I didn't think I would have to spell that out. You don't know much about how China conducts business, do you? Sure, they are "Communist", but it isn't exactly as completely state run enterprise. But you know all this because you're smart, right? You know all about how China conducts business. Which is beside the point...why do sweatshops exist? Because there is a market for the cheapest goods, and the market doesn't care if people get exploited. Only people care. Well....some people care, apparently.