matt_m

Whoa - Never WENT over there so easy on the trespassing call. I've climbed the developers routes in OTHER areas, not Vantage. Deep breath - I know all about being conscious of access issues.

So what the story on that area - I was flipping through the guide book (The need for warm rock has returned) and noticed this section I'd never seen before... I get there was some bolt issues, controversy etc and access was lost (in 2001?) What was the story there? Anything new? I've climbed several of the developers routes and thought they were almost all excellent. Long climbs in Vantage this time of year sounds great. If this is a "hot topic" I'll gladly delete - just PM me. M

Just wanted to give a thumbs up to the selection of hard goods over at Marmot. Stopped in there on a whim and got to fondle all sorts of new stuff and their gear wall made me think of the ole Rock and Snow selection of my youth. Can't tinker with stoves then DMM biners then Met Ultralights then nordic skis in one place very often any more. Nice

I'll second yates gear - often a better sling job than the original.

any chance with all the sun this will be dry this weekend?

yeah so I wasted at least 2 hours watching those top gear things yesterday - the one with the 800 mile fuel tank is AWESOME

Laugh - and I thought it would take longer than ONE post for someone to claim "weak" or "poor form" My form is just fine. So... PULLING on GEAR is better form than trying something all free? I'm not going to get sucked into a classic cc.com black hole however - I just wanted to know if anyone has done it. If not no worries and thanks for the read.

This has become a goal route for my partner and I this year but the thought of walking up and doing a ground up try is a bit much at this point. Descriptions like "This pitch is something to really sweat over for both the climber and belayer" come to mind. Anyone have beta or experience rapping in to try the various pitches on TR first? Added benefit - the route will get cleaned up at the same time. M

Yawn - another silly "I hate bolts so I'll slippery slope it to Via Ferrata invasions!" thread drift by pope. Get over it...

Good news! After a search of the local neighborhood my buddy found most of his stuff piled behind a dumpster. Got his rack and most gear back, just lost a 2 BD packs, a tikka and his crappy gym rope. Not great but better than $3000 down the hole. Thanks for keeping an eye out though

My buddy (forum-fobic) just called me saying his ENTIRE rack and other gear was stolen from his Truck early this morning (Tacoma 4 Runner). He lives in Bremerton (Mannette to be exact) and asked me to post something so the community could keep an eye out for any suspicious "Gear Sales". His list from memory: Set of C4s from .4 to 3 I think Set of Camalots .4 - 3 They should be distinct because most had color matched DMM prowires on them. Double set of Tricams - pink to brown about 20 dovals crap load of draws - also distinct - one side Superflys, the other JC wires Slings - noticeable because they're of the red and white WC 10mm type - not very common Pair of Galileos Pair of Zlippers Any info would be much appreciated!

I think the TCU vs Alien debate can be greatly influenced by your local climb area and rock. Gunks for example are THE place for a double set of regular aliens. The flexi cables are great for the small horizontal placements found there. TCU (Metolius anyway) aren't as good. The way the rock has weathered in squamish (lots of flakes and flares) Offset aliens are AWESOME (wish I had two sets). Protecting thigns like Apron Strings (not hard) become automatic. Good bye pump factor!. Where things get more interesting are at places like Index or the Valley. Here your cracks are laser cut BUT have pin scars. In old ANGLE scars - nothing beats the aliens or offsets BUT when the crack is thin and the scars are smaller (LAs or knifeblades) I find the aliens cable tends to get in the way. Specifically the small metal bar that attaches the cam wires to the control sleeve. TCUS work perfectly here where aliens do not. SPECIFIC Example: P1 of Japanese Gardens, pulling the small roof into the first crux, you can get gear in right at the lip. You can use a nut but a cam is probably more secure as you thrutch to reach the finger locks above. An alien doesn't really work here BUT a blue TCU fits PERFECTLY. Aid climbing as well - I wouldn't be caught dead without Offsetc or TCUs on a wall. SO - I have and use all of the above and vary them based on the region I'm at. The C3s look like they'll just add to my weaponry!

Anyone been up there recently? Should I bring a chain saw for the "giant log" in the road? How's the alder growth on the road? Paint jobs beware? M

Hard but great climb - Lower part is straight forward. I find you can place a 4.5 or 5 in part of it BUT I remember getting good gear in on the main wall BEHIND your head (.75 camalot i think) and some good gear (yellow tcu?) in the "mini" corner roof about halfway up - it takes creative pro but as long as you LOOK every which way you should find it.

Ok - good info so far everyone - keep it coming. I want to put in some more time up there to "get a better feel" for the area before I do anything. All the info help point me in the right direction. Comment: Cleaning up old tat or replacing the SMC hangers is pretty straight forward. The suggestion of pulling and patching enters into tougher territory. What do people mean by "can be protected with modern gear". If they mean you can slam a bomber #4 camalot in a wide crack where once they had nothing (ala the old holes on Outer Space - #3s?) I agree - the bolts have been made irrelevant by technology. If "protected with modern gear" means a nest of HB brassies with screamers - I might have to disagree since the "character" of the original route will most likely change. You can see this can of worms before you open it - I'll take a look but if it's not obvious I'll either leave it be or just replace old with new. Nothing's on tap anytime in the near future so no worries either way. See everyone on the rock...

Planning on heading up there the next few weekends as the fall gets its groove on. Last and only time I was up there (last year) I remember that a lot of the fixed hardware was in dire need of replacement. (Scary rusty 1/4in on Yellow Bird come to mind). A conversation I had at index recently also indicated there was a lot of old stuff up there that could use some replacement. Now, before I go lugging the equipment up there I wanted to get peoples thoughts on what needs upkeep and replacement. Routes? Bolts? Anchors? Rap Stations? Want to keep a great area from falling to the wayside.

The major challenge with ANY shop trying to be a "climbing shop" is that climbers are 1) an extremely small consumer group 2) tend to spend conservatively 3) are picky bastards 4) like to complain SO - truly be a successful shop (in a climbers eye) you need to have a VAST assortment of gear and knowledge and have it at a good price. From a business perspective this is a hard thing to do and even harder to do well. Having lots of selection/inventory is costly so unless you have a lot of throughput it's very difficult to carry a BROAD selection. Even harder is to match low prices because your sales volume is low. Internet shops are successful because they can reach A LOt of climbers and thus their volumes can remain higher and in turn their prices can be lower. You guys can bitch all you want but the reality is climbers a bad consumers. There are only a few places I can think of where you have a destination climbing area, solid climber culture, the $$ demographic and the through put to maintain a good shop. Rock and Snow in NY with the Gunks up the Street and NYC an hour and half away. The Mtn Shop in Yos. IME or EMS in North Conway, NH Others? Yes Seattle has a lot of diverse climbing opportunities and frankly, with the $$ in this town and the climbing from Squamish to Smith I'm surprised there isn't a Rock and Snow esque shop in town. There are lots of options and combined you can get what you want. REI contributes to this selection as does FF, Jim's Shop, Marmot, Cascade Crags and even Mgear.com. No one place has everything though and I don't expect them to. Also of note is a certain "anti-gratuitous-gear" attitude found in the PNW. The tree hugging trickles down to gear purchases too. In the gunks EVERY newbie had a new shinny rack of C4s and no one blinked an eye (Rock and Snow rolls in the $$). Here, there's a certain 'tude if you have shiny stuff and drive a new audi all-road. Different strokes for different folks. All in all - I get gear from all of the above and don't expect one shop to have everything. Bitching about REI not having one thing and having too much of another is silly. Name me one shop that has all your needs. Me - I like having multiple shops because each one offers something different. I've never liked the "vibe" at FF for example but they have stuff that other shops don't. Jim's place is cool as is Marmot. REI? Frankly I LIKE going with my Girlfirend or family and getting my world wrap and smoothie, playing with the newest stove and buying new carabiners (They have the new DMM spectres for example). And Just so I feel like a PNW rebel - I get a stylie softshell and a Startbucks before I leave.

I just played this "combo" game as well. I worked rough framing job for several summers and learned what abuse tools could take. Dewalt, Porta Cable were my favs so I looked there to start with. The rigid stuff also looks solid. The KEY question you have to ask is "How often will I use this stuff?" Once in a LONG while? Monthly? Daily? If you have several home improvement projects on tap or work in the industry - go bomber or bomber warranty. Right now if that were my need I'd go Rigid. If it's just a hankerin for some tools to do the ocaisonal picture hang or wood cut you need to fight the built in Guy urge to purchase SICK tools. You have no need for that kind of quality if you'll be taking them out once or twice a year. I got the $99 Ryobi set with 2 bats, drill, saw and light. Frankly, I don't know how they sell it for that little. Worth checking out. If you're gonna abuse them though.... Porta Cable Circular saw is the ONLY corded saw to own. That and a Bostich N-80 nailgun....

Fast and Good when I got my megas there. Same for my mambas

A lot of good points here. Here's my issue with the "modern bolting" debate. DC was right in that I read many of the "old school" comments as people who support "modern" bolting are pussies. I state this outright: Grid bolting has NO PLACE in climbing. Nor does retro bolting established bold climbs. Spacing 4 feet between bolts is embarrassing as well. I however do not stick to the "bolting only as a last resort" arena either. I fall in between. My major issue with the claims that the old proud way is best is that it defies my logic. Take very bold slab climbing - I've got some experience with this so I'll stay close to this area. Old school run outs are part climbing lore and as such should remain, for the most part, un-touched. I'll get to exceptions in a moment. I enjoy comparing my mettle to those of past years. Like stated before - If you're not up to match mettle don't climb it. The caveat here is that the "Nature" of the slab route is fairly bold throughout the climb. When you get on it you know you're going to be in the thick of it for a while. Where I have issues with older routes is when the "boldness" is not in the nature of the climb. 800 feet of protect-able cracks with one section of X climbing because someone didn't place a bolt is seems pointless to me. (Preserving the rock as a resource is another debate and I'm not going to muddle the topic with it - it is a valid debating point however) I compare this "old an bold" belief to war tactics. In the civil war, they all lined up in a row and got shot. Only later did tactics include "defilade" to preserve troops. Looking back we wonder - why the hell did they line up like that? I do the same thing sometimes - Why would you put yourself in extreme peril? I'm not talking a simply risky situation where a fall could do limited damage - I'm talking falls with badly broken bones and dying as consequences. Why? It makes no sense. Very few climbers are in the sport to cheat maiming and death. That's not proud that's stupid. (Note here: I am NOT a product of the gym although I am not "old" either. I started in the Gunks pre gyms and apprenticed etc etc. No I don't think climbing should be a "safe" sport - Hardly in fact.) What I see as the issue is those that hold onto old "questionable risk" ethics vs those that appreciate the place for both old AND new. Again - grid bolting is not what I am advocating. I HATE gym climbers that have no clue how dangerous climbing can be or believe is should be safe. I guess you'd say I'm a believer in "risk within reason". The newer climbs on the Apron (squeezing aside) are examples of this - I did one newer pitch there (10d?) where the bolting spacing was ~ 15 feet. Still scary but not the sh_t your pants look like a motorcycle accident runouts like on the 10ds on Dream On (I bailed left into Anxiety State) Both were great climbs and I'd do both again BUT I'd be pretty critical of someone who put up another Dream On style route. It would be like lining up Civil War style after learning better war skills. ehh... short attention span setting in - critique away...

way up for Jay and his well stated post. There is hope for the future yet.

And this is why the "new" generation of climbers doesn't give a crap about what the "old and bold" have to say. Statements like this do nothing to further the noble history of climbing - both bold run outs because of lack of funds or a desire to preserve the rock. Why would I listen to you let alone respect your opinion. I fully want to preserve the history and style of old (while looking to the future as well) and yelling that you walked to school uphill both ways certainly isn't the way to do it. How do I do it then? I have the "youth" gym climbers read camp 4 or Rowell's Yosemite Climber. Great journals and stories about visionaries and their passion. Well written, and respected. Will every newer climber listen or care? Most certainly not. But calling every new climber a weak idiot virtually assures that they won't listen.

Good points - Certainly those greats of climbing have valid arguments as well. I guess I'll state that I'm a member of both camps. Bolts can and do get placed in spots that make me mad because they're obviously NOT needed. Experience and skill would keep you safe. In those cases - bolting the climb DOWN to your level is inappropriate. For me, I support both because I believe there is room for both in the climbing world. "Modern" climbs put up with a conservative, safety-first style are great and NEED to be available. Putting a bolt on a ridge traverse because one can't safely climb a 5.6 hand traverse is NOT what I mean by this. Bold climbs that reward the strong headed climber also have their place. I've scared my self silly on the Apron (Bran Flakes anyone? Lower, non 5.12 pitches of Dream On?) and enjoyed (in a sick way) every minute of those climbs as well. I swing both ways! I guess my point is, with rock resources in more crowded climbing areas diminishing, putting up a bold and dangerous route is a waste of the resource. There are plenty of those climbs already in existence. Spread the climbing around. Now, in the more alpine environment, which is where I believe Messner and Chouinard had their gaze set, there is arguably a NEEDED level of competency. Dumbing the climb down is inappropriate. If you can't pull the 5.7 move on a ridge, than maybe you need to get better overall skills first, instead of bolting the resource down to you. Alpine and cragging areas have inherently different "styles" and "ethics" IMOP. The bolting debate will never die - I support tightly bolted lies as well as bold run-out scare fest. They each have their place. It is the short sighted climber who believes in absolutes. My way is the only way is a thought process I deplore.

Just another note on history and the FAist intent. A lot of icons of the Golden Age on have been interviewed over the years about their various opinions on routes they did etc etc. One theme I almost universally see come up is that they didn't want their routes to be run-out death traps, they simply didn't have the means to bolt them better but wanted to do the climb anyway. Historically, these guys (Bachar excluded) were adventurer's with limited means and limited technology. They could only afford one good kern-mantle rope so the haul rope was hemp etc. Same goes with bolts. I can't remember who or what climb it was (significant one though) The climber said all he could afford to buy was 6 bolts so that's all they used on the ascent. Years later, when asked he said that if he'd had the means he would have certainly put more in. I've read this same account from many an older climber. Point is, a lot of head strong people get up in arms that we're not "bold" like the gritty men of old. Truth is, the gritty men were bold because they were too poor not because they were trying to make an "adventure" statement. I'm not saying climbs should all be retro'ed BUT I am saying that the "preserve the danger and adventure" mantra sprayed about by modern climbers is often an idea they invented, NOT the older guys. Creating artificial danger purely for the sake of adventure and danger is antiquated and mis-guided at best and plain wrong in many cases. I'll still support a bold, ground up slab ascent here and there (how some of those guys drilled on lead is beyond me) - good on you for the style but putting up a seriously run out 5.8 when it's obvious it didn't need to be is reckless and irresponsible. In this day and age, if you're drilling you certainly can afford the proper hardware to equip it properly. Many an old "hard man" wishes they had the means you do now, back in the day...

you might want to go buy a firewire PCMIA card - the work around won't be as efficient as just plain firewire and unless you've got USB 2 that firewire to USB thingy won't have the speed to capture properly.