Dane

I have no dog in this fight but thought the quote amusing if it weren't so sadly ignorant. No historian here let alone a constitutional scholar.

We just had a friend "blown" off Shasta in a guided party. She related her guide's comments of, "Denali like" conditions for turning around. I choked back a laugh but none the less understand why they came down DC and follow the cow path? Or rock, baby rock! Leavenworth, Vanatage, Smith Rocks, Red Rocks, the valley, JT are/might be resonable options again weatehr dependant. That (east side of the Cascades) is were I am heading until we get some drier weather.

You been out in the slop lately? I'm a few minutes from Snoqualmie pass and have had serious rain almost every day for a couple of weeks now. It has been snowing on the summits there! All on a rain soaked snow base. The kind of conditions that you get climax slides. Consistant snow at 3500' and above in late May in the Cascades certainly seems unusual to me. As does good ice and mixed on the lower north faces in late May, early June. A NOAA forcast for 3 feet of new snow and strong winds on Rainier in June after snowfall all this week? All of which is why I made a point to mention it. Cascades are a little wetter and colder than normal for April, May and June this year imo. You don't normally get to climb water ice in late April on Snoqualimie pass. Imagine all the wind loaded pockets on Rainier after a week like this. Willi Unsoeld comes to mind but he was caught on Cadaver Gap in March. May 24 2010 at 7000' on Goat Rocks which was posted in the link above. Better to give the mtns a few weeks and do some fun rock climbing while you wait.

Joe, wasn't directing that to you in particular. Lead falls on rock are an accepted part of the game to push your limits. I only know two climbers who have taken multiple lead falls on ice and not been injured. Not yet anyway. Save the lead falls for pushing on rock. They don't typically result in a serious injury. Common sense should tell us there are too many sharp pointy things around to be taking falls on ice and to tone it down a notch or two there unless it is in a very controlled environment.

From a different thread but appropriate here. Really bad weather cycle right now guys. Rainier will always be there. "But besides the obvious most recent incident on water fall ice, not to be aware that we are experiencing an exceptionally unique weather cycle right now is being blind. Dangeriously blind imo. I have seen many deaths in the alpine over the years. Most were preceeded by similar exceptionally wet spring weather patterns not nearly as dramatic as the one we are in now. The Enchantments, any Hood route, any route on Rainier, the Canadian Rockies, the ice climbs like Deltaform comes to mind, are all places that have seen deadly tragedies in the last few years......after a wet spring." The most dangerious time is during and the 24/48 hrs right after a storm. High winds make it all that more complicated as the mtns. unload. I've done the Kautz and the Emmons and wouldn't be on Rainier with that forcast. A couple of weeks from now it will likely be the casual summer conditions everyone raves about. Ya'll be careful out there.

Damn, Gaston R. had some serious ankle flexibility going on didn't he?

I had intended this to be a serious and if nothing else a somber thread for us to think about what can and does happen with too much regularity. Mr. Frieh has been lucky, exceptionably lucky on ice imo. Knowing this himself is why he added a smiley face to his post and to lighten the tone of the thread I suspect. I don't think anyone is going to seriously suggest falling on ice isn't extremely dangerious. Kelly Cordes might have an opinion as might Kurt or Doug Scott. I've seen one fall (two years ago) on ice over many seasons. It ended in a badly fucked up knee. I find little humor in suggesting that falling on ice is acceptable or comparable to falling on rock. But if you are going to take lead falls pushing yourself on mixed and ice, best to do it in very controlled circumstances to limit the possiblility of injuries. Just as you would on rock best way to do that is fall on steep terrain with good pro and an attentive belayer. Even a short fall that hooks a crampon will put most out of commission for a few weeks or months if you are lucky. But besides the obvious most recent incident on water fall ice, not to be aware that we are experiencing an exceptionally unique weather cycle right now is being blind. Dangeriously blind imo. I have seen many deaths in the alpine over the years. Most were preceeded by similar exceptionally wet spring weather patterns not nearly as dramatic as the one we are in now. The Enchantments, Hood, any route on Rainier, Liberty Ridge or DC are common, the Canadain Rockies, Deltaform comes to mind, are all places that have seen deadly tragedies in the last few years......after a wet spring. I suspect most of us look at deaths while climbing as "stupid mistakes" from hindsight. I generally have. It is easier than looking very hard at the real reasons any of us get killed climbing. My simple suggestion is look harder at what you are getting into on your next alpine outing this spring and as summer continues into fall. Better to be here making jokes than having the rest of us remind each other just how good of a friend and climber you were before you got chopped on some stupid fucking climb.

With the water ice season over and the alpine ice season just getting started how about a list of dangers in our sport we all add to? Avalanches..any time of year but most obvious in or just after storm cycles. Any sort of wind will make it worse and not always so easily identified. Avalanches kill more climbers than all the rest of the dangers combined, in all 12 months of the year. Low volume falls? Extreme cold or just as likely warm weather can cause a collape any time. High volume falls? Warm weather in the drainage can cause a collase at any time as the volume of water increases under the ice and weakens it. Know the kind of water fall you are on..low or high and the dangers of both. I suspect it is just seeing it on the forums but I am amazed at what climbers are getting away with recently. Some don't get away with it. Examples from this year? Bourgeau Left...climbed in terrible conditions. (I wouldn't get on it 10 days beforehand) Collapses the day after it is climbed. Snivelling Gully...climbed in 50 degree temps late in season. Bottom half is gone two days later. Louise Falls climbed in -30 temps and the right hand daggers cut loose with climbers at the base of the left hand pillar. Patagonia catalog shot in Japan...falls collapse as a full volume of open water comes down the middle of the falls. Same climb in the video below. Never hurts to think about this stuff beforehandand year around. With all the really shitty weather we are having right now even more so as we all wait for a break in the weather to get out.

I see the point and agree even though i use an auto block on occasion. In one multipitch climb I am likely to use all, an auto block, a hip belay or a standard belay off a BD guide depending on the circumstances and what I require. The least secure moving to the auto block, the most secure a hip belay imo if for no other reason the attention required for either and why you decide on which one to use. A new climber might find that a little scary. Trick is to know and more importantly trust your partner and their skills.

Agreed on the first paragraph. But I think the second is incorrect. A hip belay and the dynamics of why any belay works is what is important. Once you know why and how almost anything will work safely to belay with if you have an attentive belayer. now could some one please turn off the freaking RAIN

But just as obviously not a very good or astute financial reporter. Makes your repeated mistakes on the details/dates and the continued wild personal speculation even more pathetic. Obviously some sort of personal agenda on your part from the beginning. Any professional within a few minutes of research would recognise and acknowledge the situation with the Zylon law suits and stop pointing fingers. Nice Sarah Palin impersonation. If you have nothing of value to say, by all means just make shit up.

Interesting thread on the hip belay over at Super Topo as well. I don't use the Munter. I do use the other two (hip belay or an auto block device) quite often. And if the wire gates weren't so good I'd still use a biner brake as well with the right size ropes. 7.8 twins make life easy with a small rope Reverso. 7.8s are not a rope I'd like to use a Munter on.

Missed the rental idea myself. Good thought. Cold Finger: sez: "Basically, it's a dick move to put the success and safety of your team at risk "...right on. Any injury in the mtns that can so easily be prevented should never happen. Not making the effort makes no sense to me.

The NPS does. Either way it is illegal and they do make an effort to enforce it.

If you are determined to go "as is" duct tape or better yet mole skin up first and maintain it for your trip..up and down. Also worth making the effort to prep your feet every day for a few weeks before hand and during the climb with Tincture of Benzoin. And learn why you should. If you aren't now I would also get a super thin, poly pro liner sox and wear them, changing to dry ones every day. I'd also carry Betadine Swabs and a needle kit, check your feet often and drain the blisters early on if they show. A $30 pair of insoles might solve a lot of your problems. Good luck!

Has this kind of damage ( the blister) happen on all three of your Rainier trips or just the most recent? What plastic boot and what size are you using. Your normal street shoe size? Blister always in the same place? No other damage or blisters on the rest of your foot? One or both feet? Do you wear your boot anywhere else besides a yearly visit to Rainier? Super warm feet is a good thing. Too warm of feet is bad. I have some ideas but want to hear more first.

I humbly beg to differ CF, Trench foot is actually a cold injury and has nothing to do with fungus. Once experienced it can be a precursor to frost bite but can be and generally is had at any temperature below 60F. Same issue below 32F and it is frostbite. My guess from some research over the last couple of years is a lot of climbers have had trench foot in the newest fabric boots and are unknowingly left more vunerable to trench foot again or serious frost bite because of it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trench_foot That blister has nothing to do with Trench foot. I've seen a lots of blisters. Only time I have seen anything like that, in that position and of similar size is from a kid walking on really hot pavement. Boot fit is in question because if your foot was slipping backward and then forward on a moderate descent that much to cause that kind of blister your toes should also be damaged. If they are not I'd say your boots are way, way too big from what I have seen so far. If you are coming from Texas to climb Rainier you have enough money to get your boots properly fit. Insoles and a proper fit by a professional boot fitter is good insurance and cheap in comparison to trashed feet and/or a ruined trip for you or your partners. Too big you can fix to a point. Too small and you'd have to get new boots. You made it down from Muir which is 5 miles and 5000 feet from the parking lot...coming down from the summit is another much steeper 4500 feet of elevation to loose and much harder on your feet while in crampons. This is not intended as an insult. If I saw your feet in that condition I wouldn't allow you on my rope. You may consider yourself experienced. I can tell by your lack of concern for your feet and boot choices that you would be well served by rethinking your position on foot wear and fit for Rainier. [edit] CF is right on. No one should pay retail for boots. Ebay, here on CC.com and on sale via the web is the answer there. I won't even look at boots that aren't at least 20% off retail. 50% or more is even better. Let goggle be your friend.

Get some custom foot beds. They drop right in your inner boots. Don't rely on a bad fit and duct tape to help your feet. Sounds like a heat blister (not a friction blister) in the boot to me on that terrain and in that position on your foot. Duct tape (which does not breath) will just make it worse imo. Pulling it off a blister like that could be a serious medical issue. Duct tape is awesome for friction blisters in a pinch. I'd do some more walking in your boots around home and figure out exactly why your boots are eating your feet before I took them on Rainier again. A bad summit day and you might find your self walking down in NO boots from Muir if that blister is any indication.

"...at quite small companies like Armor..." In the SEC S-4 for 2004 Armor Holdings controlled 40 some corps with at least 10 of them that I recognise that were building personal body armor. The company (AH) sold three years later for $4.1 BILLION. Talking BILLIONS here not millions. Small? Exxon-Mobile's market capitalization is 278 Billion, the largest in the US currently, Microsoft 219 Billion. Not that big, but 4 BILLION is "big" enough. from the 2004 SEC S-4 911EP, Inc. AHI Bulletproof Acquisition Corp. AHI Properties I, Inc. AI Capital Corp. Armor Brands, Inc. Armor Group Services, LLC Armor Holdings Forensics, Inc. Armor Holdings GP, LLC Armor Holdings LP, LLC Armor Holdings Mobile Security, L.L.C. Armor Holdings Payroll Services, LLC Armor Holdings Products, Inc. Armor Holdings Properties, Inc. Armor Safety Products Company ASD Capital Corp. B-Suare, Inc. Break-Free Armor Corp. Break-Free, Inc. Casco International, Inc. CCEC Capital Corp. CDR International, Inc. Defense Technology Corporation of America Hatch Imports, Inc. Identicator, Inc. International Center for Safety Education, Inc. Monadnock Lifetime Products, Inc. New Monadnock Lifetime Products, Inc. Monadnock Police Training Council, Inc. NAP Properties, Ltd. NAP Property Managers, LLC Network Audit Systems, Inc. New Technologies Armor, Inc. O'Gara-Hess & Eisenhardt Armoring Pro-Tech Armored Products of Ramtech Development Corp. Safari Land Ltd., Inc. Safariland Government Sales, Inc. SAI Capital Corp. Simula Aerospace & Defense Group, Inc. Simula, Inc. Simula Polymers Systems, Inc. Simula Technologies, Inc. Simula Transportation Equipment Corporation Speedfeed Acquisition Corp. The O'Gara Company "The Armor spokesperson told Reuters that Armor's DoJ fine related to products made by Armor during the period 2000-2005." No way to win when you are fighting all the FEDS. That happens when you really piss off those that should have known better themselves like the FBI, DOJ, the Secret Service for GOD's sake, the NIJ and virtually every Federal and State law enforcement agency and their Attorney Generals. "The problem was making "zylon" bullet-proof vests while knowing the stuff was no good.... " Says who? You? I didn't see any evidence of that past all the suits filed against anyone building from Zylon. You want to paint everyone with the broad stroke of Richard Davis' conduct. Which is obviously an unfair representation. "Armor was neither the only manufacturer of these products, nor the only company fined on this. There were at least several, including the giant Honeywell. Does that make sense to you?" Sure, but not really the story or on point. Civil fines were paid because it was easier than fighting it out in court..for both sides. Better to call it a "leveraged" factory recall with everyone then wanting their money back...in this case those wanting their money were also the "law of the land". It was a big stick. "As Kanders said recently on the Black Diamond conference call, he sees "opportunities in the industry for consolidation" --- This is also how he made his killing with Armor." The thread started off as a bash to Kanders and BD suggesting the "new" gear will be sub par in comparison. I have a fair idea of what the consolidation did to the firearms training and accessory industry and don't have an issue with it. Do I want that same business format applied to climbing? Not really. But I don't begrudge Kanders the opportunity either. Reading comprehension and geography?...try looking up Issaquah and Tacoma. It might help your fantasy speculation and story telling.

Geezus..try some context if you want to have an intelligent discussion. "My point is simple. Rage on about Kanders if you like as a corporate raider or his abilities to manage the corporate culture surrounding BD. But to imply that the the DOJ or the Zylon disaster has anything to do with Kanders being personally irresponsible or unethical, is simple, uneducated, hyperbole." Second Chance eventually recalled all of its zylon-containing vests, which led to its subsequent bankruptcy in 2004. AH Inc bought 2nd Chance in 2005. In early 2005, Armor Holdings, Inc. first recalled its existing Zylon-based products, and decreased the rated lifespan warranty of new vests from 60 months to 30 months as all the other manufactures became aware of the durablity issues with Zylon. In the summer 2005, AHI discontinued manufacturing all of its Zylon-containing vests AFTER Zylon, as a material, lost its NIJ rating, and the law suits across the entire industry started piling up. It was, after all, the NIJ who was required and did certified Zylon as appropriate for use as a ballistic vest material. Not because AHI vests had failed. Although in hind sight it is obvious now any Zylon vest will fail over time. The failed vests were a 2nd Chance issue because they had been on the market the longest and because of the proprietary 2nd Chance designs that so heavily relied on Zylon. Plenty of evidence that Richard Davis of 2nd Chance made some bad ethical decisions all would find questionable by not publically announcing the Zylion issues earlier. At that point (loss of NIJ certification) anyone/everyone who had previously made ballistics vests from Zylon was sued. And from what I can find I still see no wrong doing by Kanders.

It is all in the details. And the majority of the details are wrong or misleading at best. Saying something isn't proving it. I'd bet few in the discussion have seen a Zylon or Kevlar vest in person or have any idea as to the differences. Highlights below are mine. Page 14 and 15 (not page 24) from the Jan 2004 SEC FORM S-4 ARMOR HOLDINGS, INC. "ZYLON® INVESTIGATION Second Chance Body Armor, Inc., a body armor manufacturer and competitor to Armor Holdings, has notified its customers of a potential safety issue with their Ultima® and Ultimax® models. Second Chance Body Armor has claimed that Zylon® fiber, which is made by Toyobo, a Japanese corporation, and used in the ballistic fabric construction of those two models, degraded more rapidly than originally anticipated. Second Chance Body Armor has also stated that the Zylon® degradation problem affects the entire body armor industry, not just their products. Both private claimants and State Attorneys General have already commenced legal action against Second Chance Body Armor based upon its Ultima® and Ultimax® model vests. Second Chance Body Armor licenses from us a certain patented technology which is used in the body armor it manufactures, but to our knowledge, no lawsuit has yet been brought against Second Chance Body Armor based upon this licensed technology. We use Zylon® fiber in a number of concealable body armor models for law enforcement, but our design approach and construction are very different. We have been testing our Zylon®-based vests since their 2000 introduction and to date these tests of our Zylon®-based vests show no unanticipated degradation in ballistic performance. In addition, to our knowledge, no other body armor manufacturer has reported or experienced similar problems as those cited by Second Chance Body Armor. Finally, the National Institute of Justice tests and certifies each of our body armor designs before we begin to produce or sell any particular model. Following the Second Chance Body Armor assertions, several key law enforcement associations have raised the issue to the U.S. Department of Justice and Attorney General's Office. The U.S. Attorney General has asked the U.S. Department of Justice to investigate the concerns and produce information to clarify the issues. We support the Attorney General's directive and the investigation. As we have licensed our technology to Second Chance Body Armor, we may be impacted by the pending claims against Second Chance Body Armor and the investigation being conducted by the U.S. Department of Justice." My point is simple. Rage on about Kanders if you like as a corporate raider or his ability to manage the corporate culture surrounding BD. But to imply that the the DOJ or the Zylon disaster has anything to do with Kanders being personally irresponsible or unethical, is simple, uneducated, hyperbole.

Some excellent advice above, all from guys who have done a lot of this stuff. Great TR and effort btw! My comments are about boot observations in general, use what you see fit But geezus dude that is one nasty blister. I've seen some good ones guiding but nothing like that! That kind of injury should have set you on a path to square away your mountaineering foot wear. I have to assume this thread is all about that, right? If so, first ditch the plastics for the majority of what you do. Too much boot for anything but Rainier around here and then only in some nasty conditions. Plastics use to be the standard, now there are much better options. Getting too hot of feet is almost as bad and can be just as debilitationg as too cold of feet. As bad as the weather was on yourr last trip that looks to be a heat induced blister not a friction induced blister. If I am wrong about that, get rid of your platics because they DON"T FIT YOU. I'm taking from your previous commnet that as NOT 23 summits on Rainier right? Many of us wear some kind of runner or lwt hiker to Muir or Sherman or Observation Rock when the conditions allow it. And there are boots similar to what you have shown that I would wear to the summit most any time, depending on conditions. But Daniel is right first they have to have a shank to support your foot. I prefer a rigid soled boot a majority of the time if I am in crampons. Generally less comfortable to walk in but there are a few newer models that make even a rigid sole worth dealing with. La Sportiva Trango Extreme and Batura come to mind as does the Scarpa Phantom series. Add crampons and you have the Ferrari's of the mtn boot world. The lwt mtn boots like the Scarpa Charmoz or La Sportiva Trango and the others mentioned work almost as well and maybe better in perfect weather, just hiking and in crampons up higher. Boots are all about fit first and then what the intended use is. I'll go with ColdFinger on this, "Boots and crampons (with antibotts) are THE MOST IMPORTANT PIECE OF SAFETY GEAR." I've been to Muir dozens of times in plastics, when typically a running shoe would have done just as well and hope to never, ever have to do it again Sounds like you know all that already and you are certainly on the right track attempting to drop weight off your feet. Ounces do count. "Keep in mind that for every 1 lb of footwear, it's like carrying an extra 6.4 lb of weight on your back." http://coldthistle.blogspot.com/2010/05/why-weight-of-your-footwear-is.html

Sorry, Layton I don't have much to add. I do use a foam "cup" on my gas cans for the Reactor made from a old pad. I thank Atreides for that idea. Although I use a small hole in the bottom you can set a BIC lighter too. Bowl with water might well be a better idea while cooking but I want a hot stove, fast and worry less about cooking more about melting. Haven't hooked up a heat exchanger to it yet. But eventually will I think. Thought Colin Haley pretty much got it right in this comment, "Warm weather use a Jet Boil, Cold weather use a MSR Reactor." For me it is more do I need a stove at all, If I do, I tried to break it down to three uses: expedition base camp...white gas w/ a pump winter climbing hydration..Reactor summer (high % of time easy access to water)...Jet boil I'd sure be interested in the results of any testing you do. Although I use it I am not a huge fan of the Reactor. My concerns and observations are in the previous thread.

Obviously been awhile since we have climbed together. I've had better days So I am thinking game on hooser! Sobo loose on the beach saying hello to his first 17 year old Polish girl All we have to do is out geezer, this old geezer...and his educated nose for loose women and willing rope guns .

Boy talk about a mess. I had no idea just how expensive the Zylon issue became for the industry. And we thought the liability issues in climbing were bad? I bet Warren Kanders has an opinion on that one Imagine how happy the BOD at Armor Holding had to be as they acquired more and more law suits as the parent company for Second Chance Body Armor let alone their own Zylon manufacturing. Check these out if you are interested in such things. http://www.law360.com/company_articles/220 http://www.lawcash.com/attorney/3406/armor-holdings-lawsuit.asp http://www.lawyersandsettlements.com/case/armorholdingsinc.html