Dane

Just curious as to why you want them. Are you planning on doing Liberty in bad weather where you need them or just curious as an intellectual exercise?

You might want to rethink that list: http://coldthistle.blogspot.com/2010/05/why-weight-of-your-footwear-is.html

Nice! Thanks for posting the link. Those guys have been killing me with the lack of communication Their original plan was a new route on Foraker, the west butt+ski trip and finally a simu solo of the Cassin. Same pair did TWO one day ascents via different routes of the north butt on Hunter, both to the summit, so they should have some fun stories to tell when they get back. Congrads on a great trip!

Thanks for the comments and for posting your own experiences. I hope the conversation does not end here. I sent a snail mail solo request on Monday 6/7 (from Issaquah to Ashford) and recieved a email appoval today 6/9 from Shefan. Hard to be any more prompt than that. Although my earlier emails were not answered in the same manner or by Stefan himself, as would have been typical, and certainly unusual from other's experiences posted here. I have no doubt Stefan Lofgren and Chuck Young care about the Park, climbers and how both are managed. I have a phone appointment with the Chief Ranger on Mtn Rainer Chuck Young, set for 10AM tomorrow. I'll relay what I find out from that conversation. If anyone has any concerns or questions you'd like me to mention please post them here or send me a PM. I'd obviously like to see some flexibility from the NPS on climber related issues and am hopeful that will happen by the tone of our first email exchange: Chuck Young, CR RNP sez: "You are correct in your observations that there have been some significant changes in the park's climbing program.. I would like to be able to discuss why they have come about and what your ideas are for improving the program."

Speak up, I can't hear you.

Hi Lowell, Great history there, thank you for posting. I know there is a early film of climbing Ptarmigan Ridge on Rainier but I have not seen it. I looked but did not see it, Do you know if the library have a copy? The Filson Store was selling copies for a while a year or two ago. I should have bought one then.

About time dude!! That is great news! When and where?

That would be a good solo on the Polish even though it is thicker now than it was in April. Remember this picture Brian? Even the sunny days can be a little messy on Colfax :0 Go get some!

Big difference imo between how Mike G. handled climbers and how the NPS handled climbing on the mtn and how it is being done now. Mike G's mantra from what I saw was "how can we help you have a better and safer climb" and bent over backwards personally to make it happen. Now with Mike G. no longer in that position...not so much imo. And why the concerns are now in a public forum. I just got off the phone to the Ranger Station in Talkeetna and baring the 60 day advance notice it is easier and faster to get a solo permit for Denali than it is on Rainier currently. Why am I not suprised. I have little doubt you are correct it that assumption. Two things about it bother me. Why is the NPS discouraging anyone from using the Park? And anyone actually qualified (not capable mind you, as almost anyone in resonable health is) to solo Rainier doesn't consider it much of a challenge or risk by the easiest routes.

I can only give you my experience as an example. In the past I have had solo permits on Rainier every year for years and no hassle just send in the paper work. Generally bug them a time or two after 30 days and you get a letter or now an email with the OK. Then last year, same gig and I get a phone call, application "not good enough". So I do a little written tap dance as requested. That interaction sticks in my crawl as most of the written tap dance wasn't anything anyone would ever do soloing on a glaciated mtn. Your survive soloing any terrain by being smart not by the gear you carry. Looked good on paper but TOTAL bs. Things were obviously going backward at RMP not forward imo. The reputation in my mind of the climbing rangers went from squared away climbers I need to talk to before every trip, to complete wantabe nerds I'll avoid at any cost in just two phone conversations. The climber that died in the most recent avalanche by his father's accounts "had climbed Rainier numerious times, by many routes". I have to wonder why he didn't have a current permit. How about the skier who was soloing and also trapped in the avi? But I know why I would not have one. I was certainly out of patience this year when my emails weren't returned. And I am not the only one unhappy with the situation and lack of communication from the little research I have done. I did finally get an email from the NPS giving me the details and a link on how to apply again for a solo permit. Which I did again last week. Same info again they have gotten for the last 10 years. Which has to be the worst system in the universe for returning solo requests! But I'll freely admit I would have gone on the mtn already this year without a permit if the weather and conditions had been better. And frankly it pisses me off to be put in that position by a park service employee. I don't think the solo permit program is being used to steer climbers to the guide programs working the mountain. But I do think the solo permit program is being used an an inept way to lower the percieved agency risk by those in charge at the NPS on Rainier. You want to lower the risks to the public on Rainier? You add qualified climbing rangers, you don't axe the staff of extremely qualified seasonal climbing rangers. You have a public place to get info out from all sources like a Blog. You don't stop using a blog that was the best source of Rainier climbing info. The only way the system will be changed is if we as climbers make it an issue and make them change it. AINT THEIR MTN, it is ours. And it is time to remind them of that fact.

A lot of lucky climbers this day.

I missed this first time around on Max's previous post, thought it very well done, so thought I'd post the link and content again. http://www.thenewstribune.com/2010/06/08/1217630/camp-muir-climbers-were-warned.html Camp Muir climbers were warned AVALANCHE AT RAINIER: Weather delays search for missing Olympia man JASON THOMPSON/Contributing photographer This is the avalanche slide path on a portion of the Ingraham Glacier called Ingraham Direct where 11 climbers were caught. One is presumed dead. On the left is Gibraltar Rock and on the right is Disappointment Cleaver. By Craig Hill, staff writer Published: 06/08/10 6:42 am | Updated: 06/08/10 6:43 am Comments (0) Recommend (0)At least nine of the climbers caught in Saturday's avalanche on Mount Rainier were warned conditions were unsafe before they departed, a national park spokesman and multiple sources told The News Tribune on Monday. Just hours after the warning, 11 climbers were caught in an avalanche on the Ingraham Glacier. One, identified as 27-year-old Mark Wedeven of Olympia, is presumed to be the 96th known mountaineering death in Rainier history, park spokesman Kevin Bacher said. Avalanche conditions remained high Monday and prevented rangers from searching for Wedeven, Bacher said. It is unclear when conditions will permit the search to continue. The Northwest Weather and Avalanche Center released a statement warning of “significant unstable snow accumulations” on Rainier and much of the Olympics and Cascade ranges. Climbing ranger Tom Payne was stationed at Camp Muir on Friday night and Saturday morning and notified all of the parties camped there that the avalanche danger on the upper mountain was extreme, Bacher said. “Most of the parties decided not to climb,” Bacher said. The three- and six-person parties who were caught in the avalanche were among those warned by Payne, Bacher said. The other two climbers did not register for their climbs, so it is unclear whether they received the warning or checked avalanche conditions, Bacher said. Wedeven reportedly started climbing from Paradise late Friday night or early Saturday and did not stop at Camp Muir. Park officials identified him based on descriptions from other climbers and a missing person report filed by his family. International Mountain Guides and Rainier Mountaineering Inc. decided Friday night that they would not attempt the 14,411-foot summit on Saturday and relayed the news to their clients. Instead, both groups left Camp Muir later than usual and climbed to Ingraham Flats to show the clients the upper mountain. The RMI group reached the flats first, and guides were showing clients how to do a pit test to check for avalanche danger when the wall of snow began its deadly descent. “The guides turned and told the clients to run,” said Paul Maier of RMI. Because of their position below where the avalanche stopped, the RMI guides needed just 10 minutes to get in position to help rescue climbers. IMG guides weren’t far behind. While climbers not buried by the avalanche were the first to start digging, RMI guides Tyler Jones, Adam and Caroline George, Mark Falender and Thomas Greene helped dig out three climbers. Many of the climbers weren’t wearing avalanche transceivers, so guides had to probe the snow and pull on ropes to find them. None of the climbers was buried deeper than about 1 foot, but two were blue by the time they were rescued, Maier said. Wedeven was traveling alone, so he was not roped up and perhaps not using an avalanche transceiver. Wedeven’s parents, David and Carol, told KIRO-TV that their son had climbed Mount Rainier numerous times. “He said to me, ‘Mom, if I die on a mountain, don’t worry about it,’ and I’m sure it was instant and it was over,” Carol Wedeven said to the news station. All of the buried climbers were pulled to safety within 10 minutes, about the time IMG guides Eric Remza, Josh Smith, Mike Haft and Austin Shannon arrived and started tending those who were hurt. “They were lucky because they were in the right place at the right time to help,” Maier said of the guides who helped in the rescue. The current high avalanche danger is not unusual in June when winter and summer conditions mix, said Paul Baugher, co-director of International Mountain Guides and director of the Northwest Avalanche Institute. Most of the avalanche danger comes early in the season, and so far this season more of IMG’s climbing parties have turned around than have reached the summit, he said. The nice weather Saturday morning might have given climbers a false sense of security, he said. “You go up a little bit to take a look and it’s so nice that you get lured into going a little bit farther,” Baugher said. “People get away with a lot of bad decisions.” With nasty weather battering Rainier for the past three weeks (at one point last week three hours of 100 mph winds ruined several tents at Ingraham Flats), climbers and guides alike were itching for a nice day that would allow them to summit. “I give a lot of credit to the guides to be able to resist the temptation (to climb on Saturday),” Baugher said. “It’s always OK to turn around.” Wedeven is presumed to be the first mountaineering death on Rainier since 2005, when a Jefferson County firefighter fell down Gibraltar Chute. From 1998 to 2005, park records show there was 0.18 fatalities per 1,000 climbers. With the risk of avalanche still high, Baugher says climbers must be diligent about checking conditions before they climb. “Watch the avalanche reports,” Bacher said, “and take them extremely seriously.” Craig Hill: 253-597-8497 craig.hill@thenewstribune.com   Staff writer Joyce Chen contributed to this report. The other soloist in the group, is a skier. His video is here: http://www.king5.com/news/local/Avalanche-Survivor-Shares-Home-Video-of-Aftermath-95750639.html Mark Wedeven, 27, of Olympia had by his Father's account, "climbed Rainier numerious times, by all different routes." Mark had also climbed Olympus by biking from Olympia to the mtn, climbing it and biking home. He was a climber by any definition. Our best to his family and friends.

Good info, thanks. Teton's climbing ranger's conditons blog. http://www.tetonclimbing.blogspot.com/ http://www.tetonclimbingroutes.blogspot.com/ with a 6/03 update on conditons. And the Tetons registration program: "ll overnight stays in the park require a backcountry use permit. Obtain a backcountry permit at the Jenny Lake Ranger Station, Moose Visitor Center or the Colter Bay Visitor Center. The Jenny Lake Ranger Station is the clearinghouse for all backcountry permits when climbing is on the agenda and for all camping in Garnet Canyon. Climbers are not required to register for climbs in Grand Teton National Park; however, climbers are encouraged to leave itinerary details with friends and family. Currently, climbing permits are not required and there is no fee for climbing in the park. If you do not have a person with whom to leave details of your trip with and would like to participate in the Voluntary Registration System, you may do so in person at the Jenny Lake Ranger Station (JLRS). Climbers who decide to register with the park must check in upon return from their trip by stopping by the Jenny Lake Ranger Station in person or dropping off their registration form in the drop box at the JLRS." If Parks Canada and the entire Mt Blanc Massif which covers parts of three countries (who both have more climbers and much more serious weather and routes) can do it you have to wonder why the NPS on Rainier continues to drop the ball.

Agreed. One of the reasons I'd bet the latest avi victim didn't have a solo permit and with no permit you can not register to climb solo. Nice how that works out. As an example I have had a solo permit for YEARS on Rainier. I generally get one late winter or early spring every year. Last two years it has become a silly exercise in "cover your ass" for those involved. And frankly I have less and less patience for it and them dragging their public paid feet simply so I can have access to a freaking National PARK.

Have you ever been helped on a Rainier climb by this blog? http://mountrainierclimbing.blogspot.com/ It was started by an entire crew of folks just wanting to offer help and saftey tips to Rainier climbers. I found it a great resource over the last few years until just recently when the NPS stopped using the blog for climbing specific info. It would be nice if all the Rainier guide services and their guides and the NPS climbing rangers would offer their input on a daily basis as well. more here: http://mountrainiercontribute.blogspot.com/2006/11/behind-scenes.html If you find it worth while email the current climbing program manager and rescue coordinator for Mount Rainier National Park and ask that he and his staff continue and update the original blog. His email is: Stefan_Lofgren@nps.gov If you have had a difficult time getting a solo request processed in a timely manner or climbing questions in general answered or wonder why there are fewer climbing rangers on staff and on the mountain at any given time ask the same email address. If you have concerns on how the park is being taken care of or any climbing concerns you can also reach the Park Superintendant here: Mount Rainier National Park ATTN: Superintendent's Office 55210 238th Ave. E. Ashford, WA 98304 or via phone at: 360-569-2211, ext. 2301 or here via email: http://www.nps.gov/mora/contacts.htm

No disagreeemnt about anything you said. But take a look at the blog which had quickly become the focus point for all climbing on Rainier: http://mountrainierclimbing.blogspot.com/ and how it is updated now, how useful the info is to climbers and how it was updated say in 2008, only one season ago. Then think of how much more info could easily be there for anyone climbing on Rainier if the NPS and all the guide services contributed on a daily basis.

I think the point is there were a whole bunch of people (guides, clients, NPS Climbing Rangers and private parties) out on Saturday morning climbing in "blatant disreguard for the conditions". We are lucky there was only one death. How to improve on both those issues is what I am interested in.

A why don't we know the missing climbers name? "Ever wonder exactly why anyone who was capable of climbing Rainier solo would not bother with the madatory registration and again the mandatory solo permit? Good question to ask of the Chief Climbing Ranger on Rainier since he controls the permits and applications process." Because the solo permits have taken exceedingly long and rather hard to get over the last two years. So many just don't bother and avoid the NPS althogether after trying to get a solo permit now. Avoiding the NPS is easier since they have cut the climbing ranger staff in half in those same two years. So when a climber is lost soloing with no permit the NPS then looks for their car in the parking lot to identify the victim. You guys don't see an issue with the system here? Don't jump too quickly to conclusions Dave. You mentioned in a previous post there is a reason that private parties should not be blindly following the guided parties out of Muir. I agree with that. Could it be possible that the lack of NPS climbing rangers since the staff was downsized might have some influence on the private party decision making as could the guide services given the chance to communicate what they are doing. How about the guide service and the NPS do daily updates on the mtn's conditions at the blog? So that incidents like what happened on Wednesday last week were well known? Both the guides services and the NPS climbing rangers make a living off the NP is it asking too much that they make a better effort to open access to the park and offer up the little information they do glean on the mtn in a public forum? I think there are several issues here that could be done better to everyone's benefit. Which is why I am wasting the time to day to make the point.

Actually chest beating aside, the guide services and how the NPS treats climbers has everything to do with this climber specifically and when he will be identified. So obviously I disagree. Ever wonder exactly why anyone who was capable of climbing Rainier solo would not bother with the madatory registration and again the mandatory solo permit? Good question to ask of the Chief Climbing Ranger on Rainier since he controls the permits and applications process. Better ask why the climbing ranger positions were cut almost in half a couple of years ago and are understaffed now on the same person's watch? Ask yourself why when the conditions were so obviously dangerious on the mtn why the guided parties stopped below the avalanche danger and the "private" parties continued? Read the dates of the most recent posts on the Rainier conditions blog lately? NPS and we as a community are very lucky that only one person died this weekend on Rainier. It is not like anyone had much of an option once the slab cut loose. At that point it is just dumb luck. My heart goes out to the family and friends of the missing climber. But if it my friend or family I'd also want a few answers.

Sadly it sounds like (but not yet confirmed by the NPS) that it may be a climber from Olympia lost in the recent avi.

Now the NPS thinks (but has not yet confirmed) it may be an Olympia climber that is missing in the Rainier.

Sucinct decision making between the two..climbing or heliskiing considering the money involved these days to do either. Having guided both I historically found the heliski crowd expecting more from guides and the guide service and willing to put up with a lot less BS. They generally are very good skiers which also means they generally know something about snow. Tougher crowd than climbers for the guides to keep inline as well. I suspect the refund policy of the climbing concessions on Rainier wouldn't be tolerated by the typical heli ski client. Blog update and Avi warning from NWAC? http://mountrainierclimbing.blogspot.com/2010/06/special-avalanche-statement-june-7-2010.html Didn't that horse leave the barn over a week ago? Quick look here at CC.com would have told you that. Be nice if Stepahn would make the effort to update Mike's old blog and keep it up to date as it has been in the past. That was and still is the purpose of the blog and my impression of the NPS's job...to help the public enjoy the park safely. In the past (until Mike was shipped to DC) that blog was the definative info source for all climbing on Rainier. It should be now and is not. The funds of one rescue prevented could support that blog 24/7 for several years. The NPS and Chief climbing ranger Stefan Lofgren ought to get a clue. And while Lofgren is at it he might want to think long and hard just why so many soloist now choose not to bother with a solo permit. Could it be they have recently been made a pain in the ass to get and that is not even considering the time frames they now require.

My point exactly on the Heli guiding. You don't get charged when they don't fly. When you do fly, you ski. Not so much on Rainier in iffy conditions. And no question on the safety issue of using a guide. Clients don't make decisions on climbs generally, the guides do and for good reason. Like i said, "if your are happy", I am happy Just thought the topic worth the conversation for those wondering.

I laughed when I saw the London thing thinking I should hook you up with Fulton...then realised it was Fulton writing! He has a quick way off the Gouter that few know but you guys will recognise and just love How ya doing Dave?

"Sure it would be disappointing since I planned a trip a year in advance, but it is out of everyone's control....so why do I get a refund?" Seriously if you are happy, I am happy But my point is if you could estimate the conditions from where ever you are and I can from my desk then it isn't "out of everyone's control". How far you decide to push those conditions safety wise is what your guide does up high. Leaving Paradise is likely totally in the guiding company's control. And their major product is blue sky for good parts of the season:)