Dane

The other guy sez: "I'm not sure that, as a newbie climber, I wouldn't have had the inclination to post something similar had I thought that I'd managed an FA. Just tone it down a few notches dude" Bunch of us here in the same boat...easy to get excited about climbing and want our accomplishments known and acknowledged. We just didn't have the ability to reach such a BIG (and informed) audience or be vunerable to anonymous attacks for doing so bitd. Any TR report is cool. Claiming FAs without some serious research or common sense is not....all in my opinion of course. Think not? Take a look here? http://cascadeclimbers.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=867796 I consider myself a serious student of mountaineering history with legit FAs on all types of terrain. A couple of years later now and I still have questions on reports and FA info after talking with many who have climbed the several lines I was discussing in that thread. Does it matter? No. All are good climbs and it is obvious I didn't do any of them first But I did do them..that is what is important to me. Colin, you're getting flayed, not for the TR or the FA claim..but for your entire persona on cc.com. You might want to think about that as Kayfire and many others have suggested. The "spray" in this thread deserves to be here I think. TRs and FAs are VALUABLE history to the climbing community and should be taken seriously. We as climbers need to take it seriously both in posting good info and ridiculing bad. You aren't the only one to take some heat over what others perceive as misteps. Blake H. has as well...deserved or not. Anyone that stands out will be a lightening rod for someone's angst. Buy a helmet (do your homework), be prepared to get fried (held responsible for what you say), but figure in that way you are in good company! It was just a matter of time before this kind of response happened on a TR. Too bad someone obviously fired up and and may be a little naive about climbing had to take the blunt of it. But....it is not the worse thing that can happen in climbing

Couple of thoughts. Gene, as always offeres good advice up front, "if it rains, go home. really.. So first is don't go out/stay out in the rain if you are climbing. It is slippery and rockfall and avalanche hazard increases by leaps and bounds. Wool is a good base layer used in the right thickness. It will keep you much warmer than any synthetic when you need to dry out. Yes it dries slower. Which is a good thing when required. Synthetics have their place but not always next to the skin and not always the only available insulation. As you'll read later I am careful about wool as a base layer on my lower body. It aint old school. It is common sense if you have used both types of insulation. My answer to the rainy NW is dress extremely light. I don't try to stay dry, just warm. When I stop I change to dry clothes other wise I "work" in the wet. That generally means a shell that is not totally water proof but is extremely breathable. Or maybe even a lwt merino wool sweater as the outer "shell". No pit zip, nothing fancy just a wind layer with some water resistance. I'll happily sacrifice having a lwt breathable upper and lower system totally soaked through and change to dry gear at the end of the day (or end of the approach) ...or just get in my synthetic bag with wet gear and dry it (some or totally) over night with body heat. Hard shells don't go in your bag to dry..only your insulation or very breathable lwt shells. Been soaked to the skin many times and walked myself dry again. Not a big possibility of accomplishing that in Goretex if your inner layers are soaked through. If you are going from cold wet conditions to freezing conditions and don't have all this squared away you are asking for a real disaster. The same places SAR will end up. Same reasons weather reports are REALLY important and why people die every year. If I really want to stay dry. Like in SE Alaska for example where rain and 30 temps can be the norm day in and day out I use a totally water proof bib pant (commercial fishing gear) with a mesh liner and a good hooded Gortex jacket that over laps the pants. Knee high rubber boots go with that outfit as does a good hat of your choice. That system will keep you dry in any amount of rain. But you also have to manage the level of physical activity and not soak everything with your own sweat. Same idea when winter climbing in colder temps. Body temp management is no different in the rain than in the cold...what you'll pay for not doing it correctly is the differenece. Camping...synthetic bags will dry some of your lwt gear with body heat...but it can't do miracles. But you will sleep warm. If it is raining you won't need a very thick synthetic bag. Speaking of synthetics. Primaloft 1 really is the most effective synthetic available currenty and a big advancement in insulation. It makes a big difference in this application and in winter as well. Tents? Want to stay dry? Think BIG and with a rain fly, as in dbl layer. Forget the single layer tends no matter the matterial. Bring a sponge to mop up the tent floor. Screw the open bottom tents in serious rain....water goes to the low point of what ever surface you are on. Tent floors keep some water out...sealed tent floors, tent foot prints set up with drainage in mind and an active sponge brigade will keep the rest to a managable level. Boots? Nothing will keep you dry in real rain. Rubber boots get wet from the inside and your own sweat. Gortex, leather, plastic? All get wet eventually if you are out long enough and it is coming down hard enough. Either from the inside or the outside. Or over the top....and down inside the boot. So? Fit your boots with light enough soxes that you can dry out your spares over night or during the day inside your layers. Dry soxes will prevent immersion foot even with wet boots for a while...but not forever. Wash in or spray on conditioners? They are not the answer. Clothing and body temp mangament skills are. Refresh your gear as required but don't look to the wash in/spray on additons as miracle workers either. Little story for you. We once started a long alpine climb (Canadin Rockies not the Cascades) in good weather that 4 hrs later was a light rain. By day's end it was a steady rain and we were stuck in a water fall trying to finish the last 300' of the climb...now 1000m off the ground. We were wearing mostly wool but had synthetic bags. We went to bed totally soaked but protected from the elements for the most part by an over hanging rock wall above us. Dry in the morning we finished the water fall pitch and totally soaked again, started the descent and 16 mile walk out to the road. By that day's end we had been soaked for 16 hrs and it started to rain hard again....still a good 10 miles form the road but this time with no shelter but our bivy bags and damp sleeping bags. I woke up during the night with a soaking wet sleeping bag and a puddle at my head 1/2" deep inside my bag....it was really raining hard. I moved out of the comfortable depression I was in for an uncomfortable knoll that drained water, and more than tired, went back to sleep. We got up as the rain stopped and walked our now only damp clothing, dry again, the next day. The one thing I wish...would have been different? The Harris tweed knickers rubbed my inner thighs so raw they were bleeding long before we hit the road on day 3. My leather boots were wet for a week after getting home but finally dried out stuffed with news paper. While wet the entire three days for the most part I was never really cold the entire trip. I was scared though...knowing what could happen if the temps dropped or we couldn't continue to keep moving. I had dreams of a hot, dry towel fresh out of the dryer for years after that trip. The one addition that would have made life something like 1000x better on that trip? A light weight pair of synthetic long johns under those wool knickers. With 1000s of $ of the most modern gear in my closet at the moment I would be hard pressed to be that comfortable in those conditions today. My answer if I were to do the same climb now? Pay more attention to what your first layer is, head to toe, dress lighter, climb faster...and the most important?? Don't climb in the freakin RAIN

re: FA on Haystack? "Get Fuzzy" in 4/25 Sunday Comics sez: "aw, fer the love of....your bar is so low it's impossible to humiliate you!"

Phantom Guide weights in at 2 lb 7.5oz in my size 45. Or .5oz more than the Batura in a size 45 which is 2 lb 7 oz. for comparison. So not the 1/2 lb lighter per foot we speculated over the Batura but actually a .5 oz heavier. Scarpas will take one less notch on the crampons though while being a 1/4 size or more longer inside the boot. It is a low profile single boot.

Agreed, to original post that was deleted. Boot/axe belay is very effective and very fast. Also...ski pole self arrests? Not all that useful in the back country..but better than nothing. I'd suggest if you are going to ski terrain where a fall might well be dangerious to get the right gear for the terrain. Ski pole grips with the ability to self arrest properly. Black diamond offers them as do others. On even black diamond runs at a ski area a ski pole self arrest is of minimal use imo.

You think? I don't see much difference between any of these designs. Some similarity on all these and some subtle differences as well. The Grivel Air Tech and the BD Sabertooth have similar length down points. Likely the Vasek fits in there as well. G12, Cassin and Sarken have similar over size fronts and angled downs. BD has stainless steel and is a true working 14 point crampon instead of 12 as the rest are. 14 down I think is a distinct advantage over all the rest but not a huge advantage like what all of these have over "sport" crampons like the Dartwin on moderate terrain. The Sarken has the combo horizontal/vertical fronts. Grivel Air Tech the widest foot print. Past the nuances they all climb pretty much the same on any terrain as far as I can tell. Some advantage of shorter points all around on mixed. Big first angled fronts have some advantage on moderate ice or softer snice/alpine ice. But not likely something you'd notice unless you have climbed on all sorts of crampon styles in lots of different conditions I suspect. Something inbetween? Maybe...I haven't used them on really hard Alaska or Canadian alpine ice to give an opinion. But really hard to compete with super thin, forged and easily replacable front points in those conditions. I would think better compared to the Sabertooth for the distinct differences of the two over the others listed above. But would like to hear anyone's comments either way. 10 pt "sport" 'pons...some more sporty than others. 12 point "tech" 'pons...and able to change roles easily.

Carlos is a big fan. But then Carlos can climb most stuff with a club and a nail through it when he is in the mood. The e-climb stuff feels good with some innovative engineering. But to be honest I was a bit put off by the cosmetics so passed at the chance...and happy with my rather plain jane Nomics.

http://www.e-climb.com/ Carlos is part of the e-climb team. He'll also demo their tools for you in Canmore.

I too asked about the Neve heels "only" option again. I think that will be an easier option shortly. But hey what do I know, I'm just a Joe Blow as well

The Fin (great climbing) or third class ledges (spectacular position) as the finish to the G/S are both well worth the effort. The climbing below is both fun and moderate. Route finding is easy and the chimney can be avoided by the obvious corner Best part is the G/S is "the" plumb line on the face. A favorite: Eric's picture of Lucie on the Fin.

Vector? Same issue as the other sport crampons...Vector lacks a middle set of down points simply to save weight. Even DR found the frames flexed on the Vectors in his R&I review. Poor choice as an all around 'pon imo. No bots available and cookie cutters need bots more than any other design pattern. And the BD lwt combi is a full 5oz lighter. And only 2oz heavier per pair in full steel.

Sorry, I've no clue on old or new bails. I got all my spares last year from Petzl and all have angles. The only issue with the smaller Petzl bail wire is they seem to work harden over a couple hundred days of actual climbing. At least that is the current theory on Petzl stainless wire and why it breaks.

No worries, hope it helped. Be curious as to how you like them.

Must be talking about me 'cuz don't think Marc has done PC last we talked. Not that he couldn't with ease. You? Not likely. Climbing is a lot like fighting...always some one bigger and badder out there with his mouth shut ready to slap you around like a rag doll. Best to shut the fuck up so you don't look so..... stupid.

You can order the heel pieces as a stripped spare part from BD customer service. Fairly common mod. Then just add what you need from your steel set up. I was thinking it was my bad knee this winter on moderate ice till I switched from Dartwins to the Sabertooth for a lap on Carlsberg. Amazed at just how much more stable and secure the "old" style 'pons felt and climbed. Wish they made a Sabertooth with the 2 Cyborg fronts for Alaska. I cut my link bars down as well. Depending on the boot size..the asymmetrical bar can really improve the over all fit. I generally use Petzl front bails for fit. Lost the bail straps long ago no matter what crampon i use. I use the asym bars on my Trangos but not on the Spantiks. Pic is on Trangos, 'pon much better centered on boot, with the bar marked for cutting

You think?

'cuz you have been acting like a tool. Have been for some time. Tone it down to the level of your actual involvement in the sport. Then peeps won't make nearly as much fun of you. Not my business, just say'in Marc already has a climbing resume' that many here would envy and he aint spraying about it. So no one (mostly) makes fun of him. I'm just waiting for Tamara to find out Marc is gay so I can weasle in on the hottie

'cuz you can/have actually climbed, have a girl friend and oh, I forgot...can't actually recite every climb or boulder problem you have done in your life. May be that is why. You can't recite/remember them all....can you?? Naw, didn't think so

This from the guy who seldom rated anything harder than ".11c" bitd *Fun* is just a personal peception. So Daryl, your thoughts on what Thin Fingers should be rated?

Not the "clean version"...been a while. Either way sounds great and a trip to NAD even better. Thanks to all for the heads up on that. Yes on the SC ledge...problem for me is always getting onto that ledge and clipping the anchors or the other way around. Anyway I've done it, the last body length seemed harder than expected and the crux for me.

Saber has one more set of down points, equal length downs and climbs water ice (5+ and up) just fine. Gotta buy new fronts on either if you wear them out. Down side the Peztl levers suck, and will bite soft boots but the wires are skiiny ( i like) and some times break.(I don't like) The BD wires are thick (don't like) but never break and levers work on any boot. Bots are better on the Bds. Stainless is nice but nothing magic. Advantage for climbing? Sabertooth...one more set of points and equal length points. Seriously good design work on this one. No advantage on any type of ice to the teeth on the Sarken fronts..cosmetics only. Nice design but no real advantage to the vertical/horizontal combo of the front point design that I can discern climbing. G12s are very similar and I find them better on pure ice than the Sarken. BD slightly better than either. G12, Sarken and Sabers all climb about the same...advantages to Sabertooth (imo) as noted. Agreed on the Dartwin/Dart...suck for general use. Both are sport 'pons that lost a set of points to save weight...bad design imo...as much as I like them for weight. Any of the three generics climb better. The Sabers much better. Bunch more about 'pons on my blog. Stripped LWT Sabertooths on my Spantiks.

"I was saving it for the onsite but now it's so built up in my head thanks to people like you calling it hard I'm kind of scared of it...and had to resort to swearing, thrutching and hanging more then I would have liked...I definitely do better on routes with distinct cruxes and good rests." Don't be...the SC crux is literally clipping the anchor with good gear in the crack as high as you can place it...just save some for that last few feet. Frustrating for sure, but nothing scary about it. I definitely do better (on the internet) and on routes that have no crux and lots of rests Dirty? Yep, LL is dirty or at least was unless something has changed.

Do you mean the 2nd pitch of City Park or Leapin' Lizards? No 5.11 found on either. I thought .10b. Lizards is more sustained. How ever I do find clipping the anchor on Slow Children a sand bagged .10d Dude, you really need to get out more.

An all time classic, well done!

Most folks who actually know how to rate a climb do it on sight and on lead. Since '78 the upper thin crack has developed a couple of blocky steps that make the final finger crack after pulling past the bulge (which was the crux) much easier. TF never was a technical 5.11 but an endurance climb, rated 5.11 because the pro was suspect without cams. IMO it is the easiest "5.11" at LTW. Best may be to ask Daryl Cramer what he now thinks TF should be rated. "Chris Henson plugs a perfect cam on Thin Fingers (5.11a), Lower Town Wall." Photo by Ben Gilkison / www.bentroy.com http://www.climbing.com/exclusive/features/index_279/index2.html