Dane

Snappy retort. The continued conversation was in answer to a question previous in the thread: Obviously the answer to that question is yes if you consider leaving Paradise starting a Rainier climb. Every guide concession on Rainier had trips up at Muir or higher in these conditions all of last week.

Lots of summit climbs that make it safely to the top of Rainier in marginal weather all year long. Fair? Fair to who? Only one it is fair to IMO is the guide service. But I am talking about a very limited time frame (really shitting conditions) on Rainier specifically and the refund policies of the guiding concessions there. In this case imo a way to milk the clients knowing full well they aren't going to get the experience they are have paid a healthy amount of money for. I am not bashing guides or guided trips in general. Done to much of it myself. But I think Rainier is a unique situation. The demand for guided climbs on Rainier allows the guide services to book every trip full for the entire year well ahead of time. They make some serious coin doing so. Part of that IMO should be some financial risk on both sides, as it is after all MOUNTAIN CLIMBING. If every client or beginner climber thinks the guide services offer a good value, great. And it might well be a good value depending on what you are looking for from the experience. But it doesn't really matter what the client thinks as the lines of new clients are never ending and uninformed by definition to make a decision if they got a good value or not.

"The bottom line is that while most have cancelation policy rarely is there a refund because you have hired someone for their services." If I hire you for your service as a guide I also hire you for your knowledge of local conditons. If a guide drove me to a put in for rafting with the river running a gazillion CU feet and then said sorry no can do or a heli ski guide flew me to the top of a mtn and then said sorry...no can ski? How about a Halibut trip leaves the bay and then hits 10 foot swells in open water that has the crew laughing and the clients puking I might even feel a little ripepd off. When a guide service sends a guide out of Paradise with a full trip with guide and guide service both knowing full well they won't be going higher than Muir you can make your own decision on how ethical that is. But examples do go on and on. Sure, getting to Muir and then getting up at 1 am for the hike up to the Ingraham can be a great experience. But it isn't what most Rainier clients are paying for is it?

Sobo, two different slides...Wednesday and Saturday morning. video from the NPS chief climbing ranger. http://www.katu.com/news/95695844.html?tab=video

I agree. My wife actually pointed that out to me this morning. Most that register as clients are thrilled to just make it to Muir. Which in decent weather is actually a casual 5 mile walk. Getting up at 1am and walking out into a storm at 10K can be a nice $1000+ learning experience worth every penny to some. Casual, properly prepared and deadly if you are not. Win, win on everyones part to do so. Trips are sold as "Rainier Summit Trips". Better description taken from the refund policies of all three concessions involved would be "snow hiking on Rainier, summit optional". Book your date, pay your money and take your chances Kinda like Vegas actually but done outside as a mtn experience. Honest, but not that catchy or such a great selling point. Agreed. Also have to wonder why the NPS doesn't have that kind of info updated daily on the web site. The funds from a single rescue would fund that 24/7 for a few years. Then there is the "mountain experience" idea that gets a guided party to the Ingraham knowing they will turn around but with the private parties following. The inexperienced private party doesn't know any different and doesn't stop. And another Darwin award is made. And if the NPS wonders why the soloist didn't register maybe the dumb asses ought to look at the rediculious paper and time frame road blocks the NPS has for solo climbers. Not like they haven't heard it before and more than once.

Here is what is currently being reported on the Rainier avi: "The missing man, who was climbing alone, didn’t fill out a registration card to ascend the mountain. Climbers who spoke with him said he had a European accent." Just wondering if we have all checked in with our friends. Car left at Paradise?

I took the time to look up the policies of the three companies that have guiding concessions in Rainier Nat. Park. http://www.nps.gov/mora/planyourvisit/mountaineering-guide-services.htm Trips cost between $900 and $1500 these days. And Travel Insurance does NOT cover the climbing portion of the trip last I checked so beware and due your home work. Rainier is second only to Chamonix on the number of guided days on the mtn. Make no mistake it is a business to those involved and the guides are on the tail end of that economically. Some things never change Pays to look around and to be an educated shopper. RMI "Summit Attempt: Rainier Mountaineering, Inc. cannot guarantee that you will reach the summit of Mount Rainier. Weather, route conditions, your own abilities or the abilities of others may create circumstances that make an ascent unsafe, and you or your entire party will have to turn around without reaching the summit. Your program fee entitles you to one summit attempt of Mount Rainier on your specified dates. Failure to reach the summit due to a person's own lack of fitness or to events associated with mountaineering (such as weather, route, avalanche hazard, rescues, etc.) are not Rainier Mountaineering, Inc.'s responsibility and will not result in refund or reschedule. If adverse weather or route conditions prevent your entire party from reaching Camp Muir, you will receive a $300.00 credit for another Summit Climb during the current calendar year. Individuals who are unable to reach Camp Muir or complete their program will not receive a refund." IMG: Offers a 50% raincheck if they can't reschedule you almost immediatly. Make the first day's high camp (Muir/Sherman or Hazard but basically 10K or a bit lower) and no refund is offered. Their web page and link is worth the read. They also offer some comments there on the way guides are paid and how that effects you as a client. http://www.mountainguides.com/pdf/IMG-Forms-Rainier.pdf Yep, your are right, unless AAI cancels, they don't offer a refund at all. Nice. Love to see the actual summit numbers compared against the attempts by all three companies. AAI: Rainier Cancellation/Refund Policy Note: Alpine Ascents International highly recommends trip cancellation insurance for all programs. Due to the nature and heavy costs of government and operator permits, Alpine Ascents International must adhere to a stringent refund policy. Each deposit, regardless of amount, includes a $200.00 non-refundable registration fee. Payment Policy Deposits are due at time of registration to reserve space on the climb. Please include with completed application form if you have not already submitted deposit by phone. Each deposit includes a $200.00 non-refundable registration fee. All balances are due 90 days prior to climb start date. Payments can be made by check, money order, wire transfer or credit card (VISA/MC/AMEX). Mount Rainier Program balances are automatically charged 90 days prior to departure date. Refund Policy $200.00 non-refundable registration fee. Full refunds will be provided 90 days prior to climb start date. 50% refunds will be provided 60-89 days prior to climb start date. No refunds will be provided 59 days prior to climb start date. If Alpine Ascents cancels or reschedules a program, all fees are refundable and/or transferable.

Take a look back at my original and unedited post..I said guide companies are under the pressure, not the guides. Different economics involved for employer (guide service) and employee (guide). I'll assume (we all know how that works) that this is the RMI refund policy: "If adverse weather or route conditions prevent your entire party from reaching Camp Muir, you will receive a $300.00 credit {no cash} for another Summit Climb during the *current calendar year*. (so do it by Dec 31) Individuals who are unable to reach Camp Muir or complete their program will not receive a refund." So if i read this right... and you get to 10,000' or Muir @ 10,188, then there is no refund. Which is what I said but missed it by a 188 feet. Do we really need to think very hard on this? Rope team goes out in bad weather and if the guide can't make Muir with his rope then you get a $300 CREDIT on a $925 climb. I fully understand why a guiding business has this policy. Although I may not agree with it depending on the circumstances. If you guys can actually tell me with a straight face that you have never left Paradise thinking, "up to Muir and back, no way in hell we'll be going to the summit in this weather" then good on ya. Me...sorry... btdt and just don't swallow the party line. Guides are cool, work way harder than what they get paid for, and seriously, no personal insult intended here. But I also have a fair idea on the economics of guide services and how refunds work. I am not a guide but did play one on TV a time or two in several countries. When I know that any ascent of Rainier is going to be iffy from my desk 40 miles away I am not impressed when someone turns on to the Ingraham and decides to dig a freaking snow pit. I am not trying to make this personal guys..but we all know it doesn't take much of a guide to get a party to Muir and onto the Ingraham without risking anyone's life in even foul weather. I also know that a good guide will bust their ass in any weather to get thier clients to the summit if they think it is safe. More to BP's point. He has two guided trips scheduled this summer. And both will likely go perfectly if we have a normal summer. But even he knew (your client) you shouldn't be trying to summit on Rainier this week from the forecasts. Stopping at Muir is easy to defend this week. Getting higher than Muir before turning around not so easy on this one. And leaving Paradise? I'll leave that up to the readers here. RMI IMG and AAI were on the mountain this week trying to summit. And sounds like guides from all three were on the mtn the day of the biggest avi with clients. I'll let someone else ask why they were there after Wedneday's slide. Last I checked if you leave Paradise as a guide you get paid. If you could not or refused to leave Paradise you don't get paid. Either way once the clients from RMI and IMG arrive at Muir (10,000') the monetary part of the contract is complete between GUIDE SERVICE and CLIENT. AAI has finalised their monetary part of the contract simply by leaving Paradise.

When going with a guided trip realise that the guide services cancelling will generally owe the clients a full refund. Get a client out of Muir and above 10K and they don't owe you a refund. Imagine the pressure to make it above 10K with every client for the companies that have booked, been paid and spent that money many months ago when we get a prolonged session of bad weatehr like we have this spring.

"the military isn't really gonna help you out all that much up there other than the fact that it might have taught you a little about suffering" You think? Climbing mtns is all about suffering and team work. Your guys will have that down. Good climbers plan climbs just as you would a military op. Screw the strap hangers. A good team is a good team not matter what the objective is. Not particularly interested in doing Rainier again with a big group..btdt. But if you need any help getting organised send me a PM and we can easily do it over email or the phone. You guys only need someone to follow the weather and conditions and make a decision. And to make sure you don't take too much gear. Army rucks are way too heavy and generally redundant. It is a literal trail out of Muir. Takes more effort on the timing and being/staying aware of your buddy's condition than it does making signifigant decisions once out of Muir.

Things change quickly around the Cascades by the day let alone the week or the month. It is always all about the current conditions in the mountains. Yesterday's avi. path. Which is also Kevin's route last month.

NPS photo of the most recent slide. "The climbers were on the Ingraham Glacier direct route at 12,500 feet when a huge slab avalanche took them out. The massive snow slide was between 3 and 4,000 feet wide and rumbled some 1,200 feet down the mountain side." http://www.komonews.com/news/local/95695844.html Looking up the slide area a month ago. Not like this is any surprise as it has been snowing, raining, snowing for the last two weeks making the snow line unseasonably low and wet in the Cascades. Warnings were going out last weekend and continued to stay out of the back country and off Rainier. This post is from May 31 "Snoqualmie pass has had serious rain almost every day for a couple of weeks now. It has been snowing on the summits there! All on a rain soaked snow base. The kind of conditions that you get climax slides. Consistant snow at 3500' and above in late May in the Cascades certainly seems unusual to me. As does good ice and mixed on the lower north faces in late May, early June. A NOAA forcast for 3 feet of new snow and strong winds on Rainier in early June after snowfall all this week? All of which is why I made a point to mention it. Cascades are a little wetter and colder than normal for April, May and June this year imo. You don't normally get to climb water ice in late April on Snoqualimie pass. Imagine all the wind loaded pockets on Rainier after a week like this. Willi Unsoeld comes to mind but he was caught on Cadaver Gap in March. May 24 2010 at 7000' on Goat Rocks which was posted in the link above. Better to give the mtns a few weeks and do some fun rock climbing while you wait." http://www.nwac.us/media/photos/avalanche/2010/Goat_Mountain_Recent%20Avy_5-24-10%20J.%20Stimberis.jpg

Day Hikes? Did you see the run out of that avalanche and the elevations? Even day hikes aren't the best idea right now imo. Hopefully all that will change in a few weeks but right now? Not a good idea. "forecast is for worsening weather, with a high avalanche danger, and that there may be little or no opportunity to resume the search on Sunday. 6/6/10" It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out the first nice day after a storm cycle isn't the day to be on the mtn. There are avi terrain traps all over the place on Rainier at at all elevations. It doesn't take a monster to bury you. Today, was the 1st day in over a week it hasn't stormed on Rainier and rained heavily, then snowed pretty low into the Cascades. Only 2 injured and one likely dead out of 11. Not bad, as most of them were lucky. But, what a fucking waste.

As has generally been the problem, great idea, but then they hired some really dumb ass subcontractors to carry out the plan.

Going price, used or new, is pretty much $175/200 per stick, for the older/original style Nomic. MEC, EMS, and many online sellers had then at $200 or bit less this spring. New and improved Nomic will be available in Oct/Nov for $300 each.

Speculation or fact? Speculation I would bet. Bears don't generally haul food up trees, they bury it.

Shit, just clipping that bolt out right on the smooth wall a long ways out from the corner is hard. Good place to turn around imo. Glad you did

Sorry it was yesterday, Tuesday..not Monday. It was after midnight when I was writing. Nice all day. I was a pussy because of my feet so we bailed and left around 4PM. I've soloed some chit bitd but YOU were nuts to have solo'ed that first pitch Sobo! The mighty Klewin was me guide for the day Got rained out of Boise and it is raining hard here in 'quah again today and Doug said it was raining in 'berg this morning. No TR but I really like the rock (but am a terrible face climber) and the area. I'll be back. The dougie styl'in the corner. And your stellar first pitch which I found rather hard btw

Thanks for the push to check GE out. We were on RTL yesterday. Awesome place imo. I'll certainly be back asap.

We are all climbers by definition so your description is accurate. It is all just a matter of degree. You ever done AF? Not the simpliest 3 pitch climb in the world to get on or off.

Ya, right, "falling skills". Mine are, if possible, a quick look down on both sides to see what I am going to hit on the way. It use to be a joke with my regular partners. "When he starts looking down real quickly, there isn't any warning past that, he is about to wing". Then I would either make the next move or grease/blow off. Works great on smooth vertical or over hanging rock with good pro. With the pro as close as possible to your face Not always so good on differing terrain.

Ab Free has a contrived fairly long uphill approach and a unfun walk off decent. Might well have been easier/faster to finish the route than rap off and down climb, depending where the body was found. Then you'd have to get back to the village or a Ranger. Either way it all takes time if you aren't carrying a cell phone.

Agreed! And not my picture btw as was pointed out earlier. Obviously just a great photo No one hurt so I guess you could call it a "safe" fall.

Agreed on the marathon. No comparison to climbing Rainier fwiw. Nutrition, hydration requirements and time frames are totally different. A 6.5 hr marathon isn't particularly fast @ 15 min/miles. Few will do any route on Rainier in 6.5 hrs rt. Taper time (if required at all) and time frames from the event are defined by the length of the event and what pace you adopt for that particular event. Anyone doing Marathons, 1/2 IMs or a full IM will quickly tell you that the distances aren't hard with a good training base. The nutrition is what is hard at race pace for the extended time frames jumping from a 1/2 IM or marathon time frames (roughly compariable) to a full Iron Man (dbl the time frames) . None but the most elite climbers will push anywhere close to a "race pace" in the mtns so nutrition/hydration aren't such critical issues. Mess up either in a IM and you'll be left puking or shitting your guts out along the run of an IM. Mess up either or both on Rainier and most will likely get to the summit and down with very minor ill effects.

The nuts and bolts: "the 14th Amendment was meant to clarify the status of freed men" correct "and does not apply to foreigners." That is certainly one opinion, but not the current opinion of the Federal courts which is ALMOST the only one that counts. "the federal courts have never specifically addressed the question of whether children born to those in the country illegally should be entitled to citizenship" While it has been an accepted policy of the US government in the past it certainly has not been ruled on by the Supreme Court. Whether it should be or left status quo is up to the Supreme Court as they decide on the cases they want to hear based from cases decided in the Federal courts and then appealed. But the question has been addressed in lower courts several times recently as have many issues of the 14th Admendment: In some cases, the Court has implicitly assumed, or suggested in dicta, that such children are entitled to birthright citizenship: these include Plyler v. Doe, 457 U.S. 202 (1982), and INS v. Rios-Pineda, 471 U.S. 444 (1985).[14][15][16]. Good read here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution Reading it might up the level of intelligent conversation on CC.com This should be interesting reading for our happy and most recent immigrant. "For much of the country's history, voluntary acquisition or exercise of a foreign citizenship was considered sufficient cause for revocation of U.S. citizenship.[18] This concept was enshrined in a series of treaties between the United States and other countries (the Bancroft Treaties). However, the Supreme Court repudiated this concept in Afroyim v. Rusk, 387 U.S. 253 (1967), as well as Vance v. Terrazas, 444 U.S. 252 (1980), holding that the Citizenship Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment barred the Congress from revoking citizenship." If it wasn't for our Supreme Court you'd hold just one passport and I'd venture not an US Passport at that. Welcome to Amerika, I know we didn't ask you to come, but try to make the most of it while you are here. You can relax this "new" idea of citizenship isn't going anywhere so we won't be kicking you or your family out. I just have to wonder why anyone comes here in the first place and if it is so bad in the USA why not move to another country? Easy to do with dual citizenship and Poland now being a part of the EU.