Buckaroo

"He" is pretty busy right now trying to clean house. Seems there's a problem with the priests and their crooked leaders, they have a fetish for butt humping little boys. The "One Nation Under God" that wasn't established until the late 50's will have to go on the back burner.

I have to side with the camp that says the rope should not burn you on belay. I've held several falls where I was picked up off the ground. I don't belay with gloves unless it's cold. Bare handed is better. Bare skin gets traction in more different conditions than any other surface. Also if there's rope damage you have a better chance of feeling it than if you're wearing gloves.

I sewed up Rodgers last week cuz I was off the couch, it has bomber gear the whole way. There are some loose spots but they are easily avoidable. I tug on cams after placement, sometimes there's a loose flake inside a crack or mank rock. My suggestion to fledgling leaders who are green with their gear. Aid City Park or something like that several times. It safely gets you past that stage where your gear is questionable. Not many listen to that advice though.

Haven't made it back up to Index but it's probably too late to tell one way or another. And looking at the pic looking down on the ledge it looks like the block had a crack through the middle. Thinking back I remember that crack, so that sort of makes any mechanical analysis problematic since the block was not solid and uniform. So short of any blatant evidence or someone ratting out the potential perps I'll have to back off on this one, sorry guys. I guess the main thing that got me going was Wayne and a couple other regulars saying it "could" have been pushed off. It seems like sometimes things are not as they seem. But what if it just seems like things are not as they seem and they really are as they seem?

Rodgers Corner is one of those Index climbs where you really have to take your time and work the moves to climb it at 5.9. If you don't work it then it becomes harder than the rating. It's probably better to climb it as one pitch, it's only about 30M total. I'm thinking the place in question where he fell has some loose rock on the right wall, you def have to go left there to avoid that loose rock but it's a tricky boulder move. Sagitarius is another similar climb, lot's of hidden footholds on that one. I've climbed it and got totally pumped and then climbed it again in relative ease after figuring all the moves and holds.

Looks like the road to Mt Garfield is still closed before the bridge http://gismaps.kingcounty.gov/roadalert/ Was wondering if anyone has taken this forest road to bypass the closure? 47.521238,-121.62029 starting off at the Mt Si road it looks like it connects to the middle fork road after the bridge.

"many clay minerals shrink and swell when wetted" producing pressure like ice or just bulging out the sides? ""while living wood (roots etc.) continuously increases in size and provides progressivbe pressure over time."" any trees within root distance of the crack in the photos? roots have to contact the rock on both sides to cause pressure, not just their presence in the dirt "" dirt and water in cracks both lubricate and increase capillary pressure making for drastically reduced friction and increased driving force to failure"" Looks like a fresh rock scar, not much dirt on the flat ledge. Although that is uncertain where the fresh dirt has been spilled. What kind of friction coefficient lubricated by dirty water do you need for a flat bottomed block to slide off a flat ledge? ""4) pressure differential front/back of block from gust eddying along cliff face"" maybe a huge thin flake that was already teetering ""dead roots in the base crack over time, progressively decaying and reducing root cohesion, resulting in progressive long term loss of strength."" The nearest "tree" is a 2' bush 15 feet away. Large live tree roots can push rock out, like something a few inches in diameter. The overhang on the outside edge is 1" to 2" so the live root would have to be at least that big. I see a small root less than 1/4" dia in the pik. And dead roots would have no effect, this block wasn't held on by roots. _________________________

You're right Tvash, I've gone further than my cursory exam of the scene justifies. I'll look closer and get back with you guys. It's only my passion for the area that makes me be this way.

Nice link Dru. There's drawings of toppling rocks, but I don't see flat ledges, only angled ones. you mention vegetation, dirt and water moving rock. we can rule out vegetation as in tree roots which do move rock because the dirt was 3' down in the crack. So describe to us Dru the exact mechanics of dirt and water moving rock.

Okay Tvash, I've lost you on the cause of the rockfall. But IF this was trundling would you say right or wrong? Would you say that depends on whether this was a "death" block or not? I would say so, yes if it was about to fall then knock if off. What if it was not about to fall and it was trundled, what would you say?

If it was pushed off it would damage the edge as it tipped over. As it's pushed to the edge more of the weight is concentrated on a smaller area at the edge. from my investigation trundling IS the most likely cause. Frost wedging, rock fall from above or "osmosis" from vegetation, dirt, and water are less likely.

Don't disagree with you, spontaneous rockfall does occur. but there's also a lot of "cleaning" some of which is justified and some of which is not. The block on PA was a propagation crack that finally went all the way through from the weight. It was an attached block not on any ledge. This was a detached 4 ton flat bottomed block sitting on a flat ledge. M.M. an old climbing partner of mine was under PA when the block fell. He heard the noise and they dodged out of the way, it chopped their rope into several pieces.

Oh, so now not only do you know it was trundled, but you know exactly WHY it was trundled? I know nothing exactly, this is all theory based on observation up to this point. I'm just going to have to look closer to prove or disprove my points. So Rob, if it was trundled why do you think it was trundled? Meth heads on a lark? Or climbers trying to make the place "safer"? I suppose someone un-educated enough to think tossing a 4 ton block is ok would be un-educated enough to think this was a hazard to those below. And if they did it to make it a clean fall for the next pitch then they are just weak gumbies who shouldn't be on the pitch in the first place.

the rock scar on the flat ledge is clean, the dirt was in the crack at the back of the block and it fell onto the ledge when the block was vacated. ""If the block was taken off with a hydraulic jack, that is super uncool obviously."" THANK YOU FOR SAYING THAT. No other fellow CC'rs seem to be at all concerned about this We're in the middle of the delicate process trying to turn this place into a protected park and some misguided people are throwing off 4.25 ton blocks onto the trail below.

I'm going to investigate further for all you naysayers. My brief examination, 30 years of engineering background, and talking to the regulars says this block was trundled. Frost wedging or rock fall from above is the only thing that naturally moves a 4.25 ton block that's sitting on a flat rock ledge. Frost wedging and rock fall from above is ruled out from my cursory exam. I'll take a closer look to solidify my hypotheses.

So the close end is about 20" wide and the back end is about 10". All my theories still hold true. The block is frost wedged out about 1" to 2". The base is flat, the block is vertical, the wall is vertical. Average 10" and 20" is 15", the block would have to frost wedge out 5.5" to 6.5". That's just not happening since the photo was taken.

A block didn't "fall" off it was trundled to make a route "safer". Not because it was a hazard to those below but because you could fall onto it. So billcoe, why don't you join up with these guys and destroy all the ledges at Index to make it "safe" for the gumbies. Where does it stop is my question? If people were grid bolting or hold chipping on the LTW people would be up in arms. This is worse.

Go there and look at it Dru, I did. a rectangular block 60" tall and 18" wide would have to be moved 18" at the top for it to tip. This would be less if it was hanging off 2" already but no way it's 1". ""dirt, water, and vegetation"" there was no vegetation, the dirt was at the bottom of the crack. Water and dirt can move rock if that's what it's resting on, that's not the case here. The only natural possibilities are frost wedging and rock fall from above. Frost wedging isn't likely due to the shape/measurements of the ledge and block. Rock fall from above is unlikely due to quantity of fresh debris at the bottom.

From the pik it looks like it was frost wedged about 1" to 2" out. With an estimated 20" thickness it would have to come out another 8" at least to go that way. You could probably run a formula to figure frost wedging distances but I would guess 75 to 100 years for it to go that far. If it was vandalism it would have been with a jack, you're not normally going to pry something that big.

climbers with jacks is the speculation. There was not enough debris on the ground to indicate rocks from above. this could pretty easily be investigated by looking above for fresh scars. My thought at first was rocks from above but after talking with the regulars and examining the scene I'm going with climbers with a jack.

Not possible. looking at the block in the picture and from my memory that the top was about eye level. Let's say it was 5' high by 6' wide by 20" thick. Average granite density is 2.70 g/cm^3 5'x6'x20" = 60" x 72" x 20" = 152cm x 183cm x 51cm = 1,418,616 cu.gm. x 2.70 = 3,830,263 grams weight = 8444.3 lbs. = 4-1/4 TONS. I could have easily hung my Civic wagon off that block and it wouldn't have budged.

Sorry if I'm coming off as harsh. Maybe you just worded your statement wrong. But it indicates you know it's a trundle. If this was done to make the climb "safer" then this action is right there with bolting every 5 feet and chipping holds, but it's worse.

they don't know who did it, they are speculating that it was intentionally pushed off. Due to their long time experience with the crag I consider that a valid opinion. Wayne's input that it's often done makes it a possibility.

What aren't you telling us? I'm not going to violate anyone's privacy suffice to say their names are in the front of the book. Besides it's beside the point.

So Crillz, do you know something you're not telling us?