Buckaroo

The biggest mistake people make while climbing ice is climbing when the ambient temp is too warm. I see TR's every year, like people on falls that are half formed with a patch of water running in the middle. That's a death wish. I think it's common here in WA because the ice is so scarce people get out on it just because it's formed without a regard for if it's safe. Ice forms over several cold days. Once it starts warming above that forming temp it doesn't always collapse all at once but it's dangerous as soon as it starts getting warm. Ice doesn't really form until it gets about 25F and it starts degrading about 30F. So 30F is into the danger zone. You need to carry a thermometer and keep it on the outside of your pack. With the recent accident in Yellowstone the highs were getting to 35F or 40F. Way too warm, just the time of year tells you that. When I was young and naive me and Super Dave hiked up to the falls above the boy scout ranch below Chrystal. We right away noticed small stuff flaking off and coming down. We decided it didn't feel right. As we turned to go half the falls came down. This is the same falls that have killed 2 different parties. With the advent of online weather reports and remote weather stations there's no excuse for even leaving the house when it's too warm but it happens all the time. Only free hanging stuff falls without warning. Otherwise the only reason waterfall ice comes down is because it's too warm. Pay attention to the temps and stay alive.

RIP fellow climbers but IMHO it was too late season, too warm to be on waterfall ice in the lower 48

yeah, me too, he is in the headlines at CC

Change the title of the thread, it's an attempt no longer kudos

Well after climbing OS Saturday for the 7th time have to say the hand crack pitch is the best hand crack in the state. 140' of perfect hands and it's slightly flared so it fits all size hands. Nice knobs for the feet too so you don't hurt your toes wedging them. It was like climbing the thing all over again since it had been 10 years since I climbed it last. funny how there was only one other party on it on a sunny Saturday. Maybe because it was raining in Seattle and it was a little cold in Leavenworth

You sometimes wonder which side is which, I mean look at all the Chester molesters on the "good" side. the next pope, Pope Chester Paul the 1st.

I wouldn't weld, bolt or rivet. It's possible it's not even a weldable alloy, if it's not welded anywhere originally Most likely it's heat treated also, so welding will bring it to full soft condition in the HAZ and it will break right away. just make a repair strip of similar material and rivet or bolt, or just overlap it where it's at a make a similar joint to the one that's already there.

He's doing the NE Ridge cuz the regular route has a 16 yrs age limit. But he has his lucky kangaroo testicles so he should make it. He's fricking 5'10" 160 lbs, hella big for 13.

he said he was off route "for the 2nd to the last 200ft" so he's talking height not distance off to the side.

Agree on HOTC, but thought that's the 2nd pitch? It's harder than OS because OS is not vertical. Agree on 2nd pitch of Davis-Holland also.

When you go to high altitude hydration is more important than food. I would take some Cytomax and some GU energy gells. One thing I noticed on a long trip is that canned fish really hits the spot, like herring or sardines. Get the ones in aluminum for less weight.

I don't like glacier glasses with the leather sides cuz they cut off your peripheral vision. cheap wraparound dark sunglasses, but I've never been above 14K so don't know about high altitude.

Yeah, like maybe she wasn't in the braking position when he hit the rope, maybe he didn't yell falling either, that's something you have to practice also.

"He" is pretty busy right now trying to clean house. Seems there's a problem with the priests and their crooked leaders, they have a fetish for butt humping little boys. The "One Nation Under God" that wasn't established until the late 50's will have to go on the back burner.

I have to side with the camp that says the rope should not burn you on belay. I've held several falls where I was picked up off the ground. I don't belay with gloves unless it's cold. Bare handed is better. Bare skin gets traction in more different conditions than any other surface. Also if there's rope damage you have a better chance of feeling it than if you're wearing gloves.

I sewed up Rodgers last week cuz I was off the couch, it has bomber gear the whole way. There are some loose spots but they are easily avoidable. I tug on cams after placement, sometimes there's a loose flake inside a crack or mank rock. My suggestion to fledgling leaders who are green with their gear. Aid City Park or something like that several times. It safely gets you past that stage where your gear is questionable. Not many listen to that advice though.

Haven't made it back up to Index but it's probably too late to tell one way or another. And looking at the pic looking down on the ledge it looks like the block had a crack through the middle. Thinking back I remember that crack, so that sort of makes any mechanical analysis problematic since the block was not solid and uniform. So short of any blatant evidence or someone ratting out the potential perps I'll have to back off on this one, sorry guys. I guess the main thing that got me going was Wayne and a couple other regulars saying it "could" have been pushed off. It seems like sometimes things are not as they seem. But what if it just seems like things are not as they seem and they really are as they seem?

Rodgers Corner is one of those Index climbs where you really have to take your time and work the moves to climb it at 5.9. If you don't work it then it becomes harder than the rating. It's probably better to climb it as one pitch, it's only about 30M total. I'm thinking the place in question where he fell has some loose rock on the right wall, you def have to go left there to avoid that loose rock but it's a tricky boulder move. Sagitarius is another similar climb, lot's of hidden footholds on that one. I've climbed it and got totally pumped and then climbed it again in relative ease after figuring all the moves and holds.

Looks like the road to Mt Garfield is still closed before the bridge http://gismaps.kingcounty.gov/roadalert/ Was wondering if anyone has taken this forest road to bypass the closure? 47.521238,-121.62029 starting off at the Mt Si road it looks like it connects to the middle fork road after the bridge.

"many clay minerals shrink and swell when wetted" producing pressure like ice or just bulging out the sides? ""while living wood (roots etc.) continuously increases in size and provides progressivbe pressure over time."" any trees within root distance of the crack in the photos? roots have to contact the rock on both sides to cause pressure, not just their presence in the dirt "" dirt and water in cracks both lubricate and increase capillary pressure making for drastically reduced friction and increased driving force to failure"" Looks like a fresh rock scar, not much dirt on the flat ledge. Although that is uncertain where the fresh dirt has been spilled. What kind of friction coefficient lubricated by dirty water do you need for a flat bottomed block to slide off a flat ledge? ""4) pressure differential front/back of block from gust eddying along cliff face"" maybe a huge thin flake that was already teetering ""dead roots in the base crack over time, progressively decaying and reducing root cohesion, resulting in progressive long term loss of strength."" The nearest "tree" is a 2' bush 15 feet away. Large live tree roots can push rock out, like something a few inches in diameter. The overhang on the outside edge is 1" to 2" so the live root would have to be at least that big. I see a small root less than 1/4" dia in the pik. And dead roots would have no effect, this block wasn't held on by roots. _________________________

You're right Tvash, I've gone further than my cursory exam of the scene justifies. I'll look closer and get back with you guys. It's only my passion for the area that makes me be this way.

Nice link Dru. There's drawings of toppling rocks, but I don't see flat ledges, only angled ones. you mention vegetation, dirt and water moving rock. we can rule out vegetation as in tree roots which do move rock because the dirt was 3' down in the crack. So describe to us Dru the exact mechanics of dirt and water moving rock.

Okay Tvash, I've lost you on the cause of the rockfall. But IF this was trundling would you say right or wrong? Would you say that depends on whether this was a "death" block or not? I would say so, yes if it was about to fall then knock if off. What if it was not about to fall and it was trundled, what would you say?

If it was pushed off it would damage the edge as it tipped over. As it's pushed to the edge more of the weight is concentrated on a smaller area at the edge. from my investigation trundling IS the most likely cause. Frost wedging, rock fall from above or "osmosis" from vegetation, dirt, and water are less likely.

Don't disagree with you, spontaneous rockfall does occur. but there's also a lot of "cleaning" some of which is justified and some of which is not. The block on PA was a propagation crack that finally went all the way through from the weight. It was an attached block not on any ledge. This was a detached 4 ton flat bottomed block sitting on a flat ledge. M.M. an old climbing partner of mine was under PA when the block fell. He heard the noise and they dodged out of the way, it chopped their rope into several pieces.