Buckaroo

Oh, so now not only do you know it was trundled, but you know exactly WHY it was trundled? I know nothing exactly, this is all theory based on observation up to this point. I'm just going to have to look closer to prove or disprove my points. So Rob, if it was trundled why do you think it was trundled? Meth heads on a lark? Or climbers trying to make the place "safer"? I suppose someone un-educated enough to think tossing a 4 ton block is ok would be un-educated enough to think this was a hazard to those below. And if they did it to make it a clean fall for the next pitch then they are just weak gumbies who shouldn't be on the pitch in the first place.

the rock scar on the flat ledge is clean, the dirt was in the crack at the back of the block and it fell onto the ledge when the block was vacated. ""If the block was taken off with a hydraulic jack, that is super uncool obviously."" THANK YOU FOR SAYING THAT. No other fellow CC'rs seem to be at all concerned about this We're in the middle of the delicate process trying to turn this place into a protected park and some misguided people are throwing off 4.25 ton blocks onto the trail below.

I'm going to investigate further for all you naysayers. My brief examination, 30 years of engineering background, and talking to the regulars says this block was trundled. Frost wedging or rock fall from above is the only thing that naturally moves a 4.25 ton block that's sitting on a flat rock ledge. Frost wedging and rock fall from above is ruled out from my cursory exam. I'll take a closer look to solidify my hypotheses.

So the close end is about 20" wide and the back end is about 10". All my theories still hold true. The block is frost wedged out about 1" to 2". The base is flat, the block is vertical, the wall is vertical. Average 10" and 20" is 15", the block would have to frost wedge out 5.5" to 6.5". That's just not happening since the photo was taken.

A block didn't "fall" off it was trundled to make a route "safer". Not because it was a hazard to those below but because you could fall onto it. So billcoe, why don't you join up with these guys and destroy all the ledges at Index to make it "safe" for the gumbies. Where does it stop is my question? If people were grid bolting or hold chipping on the LTW people would be up in arms. This is worse.

Go there and look at it Dru, I did. a rectangular block 60" tall and 18" wide would have to be moved 18" at the top for it to tip. This would be less if it was hanging off 2" already but no way it's 1". ""dirt, water, and vegetation"" there was no vegetation, the dirt was at the bottom of the crack. Water and dirt can move rock if that's what it's resting on, that's not the case here. The only natural possibilities are frost wedging and rock fall from above. Frost wedging isn't likely due to the shape/measurements of the ledge and block. Rock fall from above is unlikely due to quantity of fresh debris at the bottom.

From the pik it looks like it was frost wedged about 1" to 2" out. With an estimated 20" thickness it would have to come out another 8" at least to go that way. You could probably run a formula to figure frost wedging distances but I would guess 75 to 100 years for it to go that far. If it was vandalism it would have been with a jack, you're not normally going to pry something that big.

climbers with jacks is the speculation. There was not enough debris on the ground to indicate rocks from above. this could pretty easily be investigated by looking above for fresh scars. My thought at first was rocks from above but after talking with the regulars and examining the scene I'm going with climbers with a jack.

Not possible. looking at the block in the picture and from my memory that the top was about eye level. Let's say it was 5' high by 6' wide by 20" thick. Average granite density is 2.70 g/cm^3 5'x6'x20" = 60" x 72" x 20" = 152cm x 183cm x 51cm = 1,418,616 cu.gm. x 2.70 = 3,830,263 grams weight = 8444.3 lbs. = 4-1/4 TONS. I could have easily hung my Civic wagon off that block and it wouldn't have budged.

Sorry if I'm coming off as harsh. Maybe you just worded your statement wrong. But it indicates you know it's a trundle. If this was done to make the climb "safer" then this action is right there with bolting every 5 feet and chipping holds, but it's worse.

they don't know who did it, they are speculating that it was intentionally pushed off. Due to their long time experience with the crag I consider that a valid opinion. Wayne's input that it's often done makes it a possibility.

What aren't you telling us? I'm not going to violate anyone's privacy suffice to say their names are in the front of the book. Besides it's beside the point.

So Crillz, do you know something you're not telling us?

Hope this is sarcasm cuz if it's not you're un-educated. Wind doesn't knock blocks off unless they are hanging by a thread. The block was frost wedged 1" to 2" from the pik in this thread but it still had about 18" to go before it reached the tipping point. the ledge is flat, the block is square, a lifetime background in engineering tells me this block was pushed off.

That's a crap reason if that's the reason. That's like putting bolts every 5 feet. If someone is too much of a gutless wimp to handle the risk or they don't have the skills then don't get on it in the first place. If you're going to trundle blocks until Index is safe you'll have to make it flat as a parking lot.

Long time Index route setters. and that's besides the point. The physical evidence points to vandalism Someone needs to call Pope and friends onto this thread. Let them weigh in on this bullsh*t.

Just across the valley on the new Lake Serene trail near dusk a few years ago. I was coming down from a summit of Main and decided to stop and eat the last of my food before taking the trail down. A section the size of a VW bug came down and smashed across the trail. It didn't stop until it got to the valley floor. There was sparks where it hit the trail and you could hear it the whole way down. I wasn't even really hungry it was just a reflex to stop and eat. If I hadn't done so I probably would have got the chop.

It is a rumor that I heard straight from reliable sources. And I know that block very well, it could not come off by itself. The only way it could happen naturally would be if it was struck from above by larger rocks. I looked at it yesterday, there wasn't enough fresh debris at the base to indicate that. Your photo is not even close to a flat ledge. The ledge this block was on is totally flat.

It's a little bigger than your stated preference but if I only had one rope without a doubt it would be the Edelweiss Sharp 10.5. This is a second generation edge rope, the first was the Stratos. all ropes are not created equal just because they meet UIAA. This Edelweiss has edge protection, it's more resistant to getting cut on a sharp edge. Most rope failures are due to getting cut on sharp edges. UIAA doesn't do edge tests anymore because they were having consistency problems but Edelweiss does their own tests and their cut resistance technology is the most advanced. Whatever you get make sure it's dry also, in addition to the water resistance it makes it slide through the beaners better for less rope drag. you don't need a bi-colored rope if you're on a budget, just get a special rope marking pen and mark the middle yourself.

sNowKats on hOOd R aid Y U need aid on a walk up?

Why the heck would someone do that? It's de-facing the rock in a major way, leaving an ugly scar. It's changing an established route in a major established area. People get a major load of flack for chipping holds and now some idiot has thrown off a 10 ton block? For what? Trundling jollies? Doesn't make any sense.

Looked at the ledge and debris today. Looks like vandalism. There's not enough rock at the base to indicate something came from above and knocked it off. The ledge it came off is flat and wide and the face at the back of the ledge is flat. There's no way that block could have come off there without some help. Has to be climbers too because it's one pitch up. That really sucks, climbers shouldn't do sh*t like that. Hope this place becomes a park and if people get caught doing sh*t like that they get put in jail. It messed up the base area too, damaged the trees, busted one of the flat rocks people sit on and left sharp debris everywhere. Someone is going to have to clean up after the pukes that did this.

Glad no-one was below when it happened. I was there one time when a watermelon size rock came down and that was scary, can't imagine this. It must have been a huge rockfall from above. That block was really solid and like you say on a flat ledge. That should up the grade to the 2nd pitch cuz the crux was taking off from the ledge. Depends on the footholds but guessing it's going to be harder.

How would you know, you've never been to Index have you? Not sure but the last time we discussed this you hadn't been there. The only place that's blasted is part of the LTW, and that's a minority fraction of the total routes, just like Squamish. route for route Index is just as good as Squamish, it's just smaller that's all.

""They produce a fair bit of stupidity, but that seems to be about it."" You should move there Fairweather, you'd fit right in.