Off_White

A guide could help with the attitude test, knowing the norm at an area before you go there would help prevent the clueless from having at it, leaving only the willfully obstinate, who can be dealt with in a different manner. A more relevant Supertopo topic might the one of the ones on Canon Tajo (including some RC.com jabber as well). The debate there was whether to have a guidebook at all, for an area with maybe a thousand routes and grade V walls. Dave Kennedy, a San Diego guidebook author (who did make money with his SD County guide) announced he was going to write a guide to Canon Tajo, an area he had seldom been to much less put up any routes. His motives were understood to be entirely financial. It was taken about as well as Walmart deciding that some hippy enclave was an under served market in need of a new Supercenter. John Smallwood, long time keeper of the flame and first ascent information, officially wrote up the information and filed it with Library of Congress and the Mexican equivalent, thereby copyrighting most of the route information and nipping Kennedy's guide project in the bud. It wasn't a consensus decision, but the majority of the folks who climb there, including the burgeoning Mexican crew of climbers, concurred that a guide was undesirable and would reduce the spirit of adventure they've enjoyed. Its sort of as if it was decided that all of Leavenworth and the Stuart Range would not be published. It isn't a bolt free area, climbers in California have long recognized bolts as valid and traditional protection dating back to John Salathe and before. It is pretty much entirely ground up first ascents with on lead drilling, though there must be a black sheep or two. Note that the desert granite lends itself to this approach better than moss ridden crags on the wet side of the Cascades. I know Paul Piana's rap drilled free version of the Pan Am wall route was chopped (and recently done again without the bolts), so the locals don't just complain on the net. So, the key is a strong local ethic and an array of climbers emotionally invested in the area willing to stand behind that ethic. It's been awhile since I've been there, but it hasn't seemed to translate into a hostile local scene, rather folks are friendly and share information, and certainly John Smallwood is findable and willing to disseminate his knowledge (unless you blabber about your rap bolting plans). Best of luck to you central west Oregonsters, there's no reason you can't sustain your ideal, even if route information becomes more widely available. A lack of top anchors might become a problem with increased climber traffic though, I know it's an issue at Paradise Forks and a number of other areas. There's somewhere out there (can't remember where) that land managers don't want climbers topping out at all to prevent damage to vegetation and erosion concerns.

Interesting thread, pretty good for a bolt debate. Bill, I don't quite see your point in that link to the personal squabble between Kevin Worral & Chris Hubbard down in San Diego, and if you're talking about El Cajon Mountain in general and the psychotic Art Messier business, that crag is in plain view from Interstate 8, no more hidden away than Beacon Rock is from I-84. That chopping war has nothing to do with whether the information about it should, or even could, have been kept secret. The difference between Checat and Raindawg is that the Dawg argues against all bolts, while Checat is proposing bolt free areas. I've got no problems with areas with few or no bolts, the Gunks are one of the finest examples of that sort of thing. It would be unfortunate if all areas were treated the same, homogenized, in the same way that the modern strip mall & big box zones in Portland are indistinguishable from Phoenix or Bloomington Indiana. I do think a guidebook is one way to reinforce a local ethic, and generally speaking I approve of the dissemination of information. In terms of human impact though, bolts are really only issues in the games climbers play. Non climbers are as likely to be upset by trails and scrubbing and slings around trees as expansion bolts. You can't see a single bolt on the Apron at Squamish from the road, but you can sure see the cleaned slug trails up that steepish slab. There are portions of walls at Castle Rock State Park in Idaho (next door to City of Rocks) that are closed to climbing to protect the moss on the rock. It was the trail and the method of bolt installation that upset non climbers about Infinite Bliss, not the bolts themselves. That's our little obsession, like Nascar drivers arguing about tread patterns. It's not to say the tension and argument aren't worthwhile, I just don't see that there is one answer for everyone, and it seems like Checat sees that also. Bill's point about not making hints is valid though, a few minutes with Google Earth gave me a pretty good idea of where to look and how to get there. I'm unlikely to drive 6 hours to do that though, and knowing the local ethic, there's no way I'd place any bolts if I did go find the crag.

Ivan, it turns out to be House Of Pain that was the route in question on that "Popped Bolt" thread here in the RC forum.

I thought about tossing this in the garbage can, but you're at least climbing related, not pitching free ipod spam. I do think you're out of your gourd if you expect to get 18 plus Pounds for a cotton tee shirt to promote your site, but good luck with that.

impressive.

Edges include descent trails too, its easy to lose site of the fact that catastrophe is a simple slip away, and gravity never sleeps.

Thanks for the good word, I've been daydreaming about that place lately.

Even OJ was acquitted by a jury, Stevens merely had charges dropped due to prosecutorial misconduct. I think his attorney is the only person who's had the chutzpah to suggest this means Stevens is innocent. They've got him on tape for pete's sake, that's even better than a bloody glove.

Is that a pre-existing term? Those fools like more like the yo yo twins.

I'm guessing Jens info predates GPS ubiquity by a few years, but he might be able to give you a direction. Get some wire brushes at the dollar store before you head out there.

I just spent a lot of time I shouldn't reading much of this thread, and I gotta say this is a damn fine debate, thanks all y'all. It does my heart good to see the yin and yang homonym twins researching away and knocking that ball back and forth across the net for a good volley. I mean it, thoughtful analysis on lot of people's parts, thanks. Silly me, when this topic showed up several days ago I thought Mr. Coe was just reiterating his vendetta against Bill Richardson.

Switch, so he could be all things to all men

Just for you Pink, you deserve it.

Why exactly are we in the Cafe for this? I didn't think there was much that was delicate or sensitive about a fairly burly outing like the West Coast Trail.

It's from that tour (a German show), though I don't know that Fripp is on guitar in this video. I saw that one down in San Diego in the same era, at the California Theater, it was indeed fantastic.

The Burgermeister, of course [video:youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eItYSfMgrQU A little prog for Mr Puget, eh?

I love the way Stevens and his lawyers try to spin the news, that the "cloud is lifted." Nowhere does Holder suggest that Stevens is innocent, only that the prosecutors didn't disclose things they ought to. This kind of misconduct is all too common, but this trial is just big money high profile enough to not be able to get away with it this time. Ted Stevens is still a corrupt weasel, good riddance.

Yeah, the Jones Quarry on Black Lake is both choss squared and very active. The old quarry at Skookumchuck Lake is also active and all those old routes are blown up and in someone's yard or bulkhead.

It is now, seeing as how we've drifted pretty far off the OP's original innocent query.

Pick whichever you'll actually wear, as opposed to leaving it in the pack, the car, the closet...

Whoa, holy Muffy sighting! It must be spring!

Your 17th birthday for how many years now? Hope you have another great year

My USPS packages always wind up getting picked up at the PO because my subcontractor rural mail carrier is too damn lazy to come all the way up my driveway. I've suggested a new motto for them: The United States Postal Service: WE DON'T MAKE HOUSECALLS! We get other people's mail on a weekly basis, and I've had several checks either never arrive or wind up at someone else's house. This is due to the wonders of privatization: low bidder contract work. The Federal employees at my local Post Office are ultra excellent and I've never had issues with my PO Box (which is used for business). I've been contemplating just stopping the home mail delivery entirely and having it all go to the PO. Since you can't see my house from the street, and the UPS and FedEx drivers all know us, so that sort of package theft hasn't been an issue. Travel is a different story though, either TSA or Alaska Airlines baggage handlers stole about $350 worth of stuff from my last checked airline baggage. I also found out that Alaska Airlines exempts itself from liability for anything anyone might want to steal. Rat bastards.

Oh, I bet you guys would have fun, it'd make a great youtube video. The abrasive jerks around here always seem to be fine people in person. I've even heard that Pink is alright...

Yeah, I was just reflecting on what an oxymoron "Olympia Bouldering" is. You might try the sandstone blocks on the old steam plant on Capitol Lake, you'll find the stone familiar. BITD we could even put a top rope on that thing, though I don't know that this more paranoid age would accept that.