sayjay

I have to say that I disagree with the 'hey it happens to the best of us' kind of reaction to Anna's experience. It is one thing to try a climb that is over your head (and certainly I do this occaisionally....just ask erik ) but if you're going to do that, you'd damn well a) do it on a climb that protects well, so you have the option to set up an anchor and bail and b)*know how to place gear*. I'm not trying to harp on you Anna --- it sounds like you handled this pretty well, and at least tried to set up an anchor and bail instead of continuing on and taking some horrendo fall that had worse results than bruises -- but I think that heading up a trad climb without knowing how to place gear well is, well, asking for it. Personally, I think that the fact that most people get into climbing trad these days by starting off in the gym or on sport routes then move on to wanting to lead trad is causing too many people to have an experience like Anna's. If you're out there climbing .10's in the gym/on sport/on top rope it's really hard to get yourself to step back and start leading on 5.4's, which is really where people should start. Your first bunch of trad leads should be on stuff that feels painfully easy to climb, and only when you're quite confident in your gear placements should you move up to climbing stuff that is going to challenge your climbing skills at all. As a community I think we have a responsibility to encourage people to start off leading easy stuff! I think it's irresponsible not to, and I think the climbing community is really bad about encouraging people to always be pushing their limits. Anna, first decide if lead climbing is really something you *want* to do. This can be the hardest part. If it is, then step back into it in a comfortable way. Start off on stuff that seems embarrassingly easy and only after you have placed lots of gear that you know is bomber should you do anything that might push you. Also, I think one of the important skills you gain with time in leading is distinguishing between "oh my god, this feels way hard and i'm scared, but i know i can do it", then pulling it together and doing it, 'cause you *do* in fact have the skills and you can focus when you need to, and "oh my god, this feels way hard, i'm totally sketched, and i'm in over my head", and if you try and keep going you end up in trouble. A given climb could go either way for someone, depending on where their head is that day. Only with experience will you learn where not only your technical limitations are but also to be able to read your own head and know when you're in the right head-space to push through a tough climb. Good luck and remember that whatever you do it should leave you smiling at the end of the day, at least 90% of the time!!! [ 11-01-2002, 09:22 AM: Message edited by: sayjay ]

best friend and i running around her house and mixing up any non-food liquids and gels we could find into a glass, then daring each other to drink it. taking my skateboard to the top of a very steep hill that bottomed out at a "T" cross-section near my house. racing the neighborhood boys on their bikes to the bottom of said hill. only problem was i had no brakes, so i'd have to keep going across the intersecting street, hoping no cars were coming, and bail out by jump'n'rolling into the yard of the folks on the other side of the intersection. painting my little brother (i was maybe 5 and he 3 at the time?) from head to toe with oil-based forrest green paint that was given to us by the whacky old man neighbor so we could paint the little shack behind his house. continuing up the gib's ledges route on rainier after watching 3 avalanches (one the full width of the nisqually glacier) rumble by. though i can't claim i was all that young at the time, just stoopid. (note to potential climbing partners: i've recovered from that particular brand of stoopidity).

quote: Originally posted by Greg W: quote:Originally posted by erik: quote:Originally posted by Greg W: Good point. When do we? Oh, um, can you teach me how to? Besides a complete lack of skill, I am totally ready to go. Greg W i might know some ladies that can help there ole buddy!!!! Duh, why do you think I was asking Sarah for some "instruction"? hmmmm, only two problems with this plan 1) sounds like we probably have about the same amount of ice climbing experience 2) i'm married sorry! maybe you oughtta try icegirl?

okay, okay the rated-g answer: get up early enough that there's still hardly anyone outnabout, take a long run in cool clear weather, hills and views of the mountains a priority, then come home, take a hothot shower, and sit down to a breakfast of really good black coffee, thick french toast with lots of butter and *real* maple syrup, nice-n-brown hashbrowns and bacon on the side. YUM then curl up and take a nap after the caffeine/carbo crash... on my more adventurous days: eat whatever is in my pack then climb up up up as the sun rises...

boys, boys, surely food is not the first thing on your mind when you wake up in the morning... there are much better ways to start your day than coffee and a donut...

awww, c'mon, think big, man! sounds like a great idea to me! then again, for the cost of the hose we'd need to get up there we could probably just buy a few plane tix to Ouray... or New Hampshire! [ 10-30-2002, 09:04 AM: Message edited by: sayjay ]

NICE! first time in a long time I've been envious of someone living on the (l)east coast So Greg, call me a gumby...or maybe it's just that I haven't had my first cuppa coffee yet.... but GNS? define please? and maybe I'll donate a hose or two to the cause...

golly gee, y'all just made my day! thanks! no prob about the ropes at alphabet -- it was fun to have so many cc.com'ers out there climbing together. and here's to SEF for putting the third rope up at alphabet i got some great gobbies on my hands from that crazy alcove move! (see erik...i climbed cracks all day saturday with *no tape* ) good to meet you too, greg. you're one of the few right-wing-nuts i know of that i'd actually like to sit down and drink beers with!

nice color-coordinated outfits, guys! thanks for the awesome stout, TG! you're *my* alpine buddy of the week... good time, good beer, good climbing and MY GOD WHAT A CUTE PUPPY. great to see everyone on the rock and 'round the campfire. already looking forward to the next one...

ohmigod. spraypaint marking a climb in the mountains. how terribly depressing...especially on such a stunning mountain. anyone else feel like hauling a sandblaster up shuksan ?

quote: for sure...but if let alone...enough o2 can be turned into free radicals and then fuse with other 02 and replenish though right? (hence what we have seen with the lack of use in CFC's in teh last 10 years making a "smaller" ozone "hole")? yes, this is correct. as the amount of chlorine (and other ozone-depleteing compounds) in the stratosphere decrease the ozone hole will heal itself. quote: but the other chemicals created from CFC's are still in teh ozone for ever correct? or can they be turned into free radicals by UV radiation? sorry jsut curious.. well i guess if tehy were broken up, they woudl still be CFC's and then screw the O3 so once there they are pretty much THERE correct? CFCs and their "by-products" (what they break down into) do eventually go away as the stratopsheric air slowly mixes with tropospheric air and the chemicals are eventually cleansed from the atmosphere. Also, the process of ozone breakdown and regeneration described in an earlier post happens in the stratosphere, which is the layer of the atmosphere above the troposphere. UV radiation is absorbed in this process so that it does not reach the troposphere, where we and other life that would be harmed by UV radiation live. And one more thing... The article said that the ozone hole is smaller this year because of warmer temps. This would be because there were warmer temps were in the *stratosphere*, not the troposphere. (Warmer temps=less ozone destruction because the chemical reactions need to break down ozone occur on solid surfaces -- i.e. ice crystal cloud particles -- which only form in the stratosphere if it gets very very cold. Hence why you only usually get major ozone destruction in the Antarctic). Warmer temps in the Antarctic stratosphere would not be the result of higher levels of greenhouse gases. The addition of greenhouse gases to the troposphere actually leads to *colder* temps in the stratosphere while leading to warmer temps in the troposphere. Warmer temps in the Antarctic stratosphere I am guessing are the result of a change in atmospheric dynamics. Normally a very strong polar jet stream is established that isolates the Antarctic stratosphere from the rest of the atmosphere, allowing it to grow very cold because no sun shines on it all winter. If the polar jet is weaker than usual, warmer air from lower latitudes can mix in and make the stratosphere warmer. Hence less ice clouds form in the stratosphere and there is less ozone destruction. The fact that the ozone hole has split in two is consistent with a "disturbed" polar jet.

Hey, at least when I was there we were goin' high class, tipping the Glenlivet not the warm beers! (left that to James...and fortified, at that). Here's to Yos, climbing with cc.comers and feeding Fred!

actually, i just came back from five days of stunning climbing in yos granite. what have YOU been doing? chasing chickens?

quote: a single study is not sufficient to prove or disprove whether we are screwing ourselves by dumping CO2 into the atmosphere quote:I do not claim it does. It does however throw claims made by some warming proponents into the proper light that they are either lying, or have not done their homework I guess I don't understand what claims it is you feel this study "throws into the proper light". Many of the models that predict/show global warming due to anthropogenic greenhouse gases show cooling over China due to particulate (aerosol) cooling. Regarding the question of how the IPCC decides what "natural" temperature is: I believe that the baseline was chosen for several reasons. it is a time period for which we have a lot of measurements/data so that the baseline climate system is well-understood. also, it is close enough to the present that changes seen between then and now are less likely due to very long time-scale climate cylces. for example, the change in temp over the past 50-100yrs due to the 20,000yr ice age cycle is miniscule. The issue is not whether we're going to make earth hotter than it's ever been before, but whether we are going to change the climate 1) so rapidly that ecosystems and human institutions (i.e. such as where we grow crops, etc) don't have time to adapt and 2) to a state where the earth can no longer support 6+ billion people. Also, the changes between now and the baseline period *are* compared in magnitude to changes between now and an ice age and between other types of climate cycles. It's not as though the IPCC only looks at temp records over the most recent 100 yrs.... And the changes we are talking about long-term are on the same scale as the changes between the last (full) ice age and pre-industrial temps. Not insignificant. As to whether or not we should spend billions of dollars to fix the problem: There are many studies showing that we could transition off of fossil fuels in a way that would be a net *benefit* to the economy. Sounds to me like you've only read the ones that say we'd all go to hell in a handbasket if we tried to improve the car avg fleet efficiency by 5mpg. Try looking into some of the stuff put out by the Rocky Mtn Institute. FYI I would not argue that we should take everyones' car keys away tomorrow. But there are many things that the gov't could be doing and that it is not because it is so wrapped up in the old-boy-fossil-fuel network. Many of these things would have ancillary benefits, such as the obvious decrease in our dependency on foreign oil and a decrease in pollution. I don't mean to sound like a flaming liberal reactionary but ya know there are kids dying even in this country from pollution every day...and in places like china, which could built their economies on renewable rather than coal power if economically viable alternative energy sources were available, entire villages' normal mode of death right now is from lovely things like arsenic and flourine poisoning that they get from burning coal. don't know if you've ever seen that but it's pretty frightening. death by massive body-sore infection. personally i think it'd be really smart if the U.S. got ahead of the curve and developed stand-along power sources so that we are ready to sell them as developing countries' economies grow. but as usual the germans and japanese are ahead of us on this one. Ah but I digress. This whole economics thing is both beyond my scope of expertise and, more to the point, a discussion that I do not have time right now to persue... Glad to see you are working so hard to understand the problem. I'd prefer a well-educated skeptic over a reflexive jump-on-the-bandwagon chicken little any day.

and another thing.... just because the earth has natural climate cycles (like anyone is denying that it does?!?!) doesn't mean it's not possible for humans to cause climate change.

1) "global warming" does not mean every inch of planet earth is now warmer than it's been since pre-industrial times. just because china may have been warmer at some previous time does not mean the entire globe was. conversely, just because china cools the rest of the planet and/or the planet-wide average temperature can still be (and is) going up. 2) often left out of the discussion of "global warming" is the fact that we have not only been adding greenhouse gases to the atmosphere but also particulate matter (i.e. sulfur dioxide, which becomes sulfate particles, soot, dust, etc.). these particles scatter and absorb incoming sunlight, preventing some of it from reaching the surface of the earth. this has a cooling effect at the surface of the earth. climate models, field measurements and temperature records -- such as from China, in fact some of which I have made -- have shown that these particles have a significant effect on surface temperature. In places near and downwind of major particulate sources, most notably China and eastern europe (and before we cleaned things up a bit, the eastern U.S.) the cooling effect of these particles could fully or partially be offsetting the warming due to higher levels of greenhouse gases. because the particles only reside in the atmosphere for ~1 week their cooling influence only extends over a geographic area near the source region, not over the whole globe like greenhouse gases. thus having large regions that have cooled while the rest of the planet has warmed is fully consistent with our understanding of the climate and with current (IPCC) analyses of global warming. 3) a single study is not sufficient to prove or disprove whether we are screwing ourselves by dumping CO2 into the atmosphere. that's why the IPCC reaches conclusions based on a large suite of studies from both sides. their analysis includes studies such as this one. 4) keep trying.

i fear dru showing up at a seattle pub club and making me laugh so hard that i spew beer out my nose.

I think it's hysterically funny that a BASE jumper is telling me how dangerous paragliding is !!! Really, tho, thanks for the insight. I figured I'd be able to get some feedback from people with experience, which it sounds like you have... I'm definitely going to learn to fly and guess I'll take it one step at a time as to how much of it I end up doing in combination with hiking/climbing. D-dog you didn't know Steve Mulholland did ya?

I went climbing with this guy that i was really hot for and was trying to impress him... so I picked a lead that was pushing it a bit for me to show him what a studette I was. Unfortunately I was so distracted by this guy that I was a good 20' up the climb before I went to place a piece and realized I'd forgotten the entire rack at the bottom of the climb

Hey 'bone, what day were you up there? We did SW Buttress of the South Spire yesterday and saw a couple of parties summit NEWS. Probably you? SW Butt was really fun. It had one of the sketchiest, scarriest, most rope-draggin runout 5.6s I've ever done, and next time I'll be sure to have something large than a #3 camalot with me so I could actually protect the bear-hug cracks... but what a blast. Great moderate route with some classic crack climbing and easy route-finding. For anyone interested, Beckey's description is right on. Can't beat the views from up there, and man-o-man is the rock great. Sounds like next time we'll have to go for the NEWS...it's definitly on the list. Thanks for the beta!

as a tribute to this thread i went home last night and blasted my neighbors with the soundtrack from Grosse Point Blank.

I agree with mattp's comments... but that said I'll still give you my 0.02! I'm neither a gaper nor a hardman and when I did this route I opted for lightweight hiking boots with strap-on crampons and a hand axe. Not a rig I'd use for extended glacier travel (my feet were numb from the straps by the time I reached the other side of the glacier, and the axe was too short to be much use as a walking axe) but it allowed me to cut back on weight and still be safe. The Stuart is at enough of an angle and is situated such that I think a fall is possible and would undoubtedly result in bad injury if you didn't have an axe to arrest.

Topped out a 3-pitch climb in New Hampshire that you can drive to the top of. Very popular climbing area and very popular tourist look-out... Came up and over the top to a family. Parents hanging out gawking at all the climbers while their ~5-year-old kid lobs fist-sized rocks over the edge of the cliff we just climbed up (!!!). Mother turns to me and says "Isn't rock climbing dangerous?" "Yeah, especially when there's kids throwing rocks at your head!" And another one, not from climbing but oh-so-stupid it's worth mentioning: My sister, who was acting as a park service guide on one of the cruise ships in Glacier Bay Alaska, was asked by a touron: "Hey, are those islands over there attached to the bottom?"

Hey y'all, Thanks for all the feedback. I actually tried parapenting for a couple of days in New Zealand about 10 (!) years ago, so i have some idea what it's all about. My plan is to get certified in the ~1 week course offered here in Washington (the place a couple of you suggested), only I'll probably hit their Arizona site in November. Glad to hear at least a few sightings have been made of people flying in the Cascades. My inspiration actually came when I saw someone fly off the Sulphide Glacier when I was getting ready to head up Shuksan N.F, but that's the only time I've seen one in an alpine setting. Pretty damn inspring.... As for the legality of it all, I can deal with the fines as part of the expense here and there, as long as they don't take my rig away! Also, I think rigs w/ harness are closer to 25lbs than 40lbs, but yes, still a lot of weight to haul up and possibly down. If I pull it off, I'll certainly be posting TR's to this site -- with pictures from the air! Sarah

Anyone out there a climber and a paraglider? I'm looking to get into paragliding so I can climb up, fly down. Wondering if anyone out there has tried this or does it and could tell me how realistic this is in the Cascades before I go spending lots of $$ on lessons and gear... Seems to me that while optimal flight-time is to be had in the summer, the winter offers some great opportunities to climb up and fly down. With all the boulder fields and low brush covered with snow and the lakes frozen the mountains are just covered with launch and landing spots. Also not such a heavy TOOL presence so less likely to get caught flying in places you're not supposed to. Am I nuts or on my way to nirvana?