DCramer

Rudy - Max broke one on Oxygen (could it have been in the 80s?)and one pulled out on one of the Rap Wall routes. Both were 3/8".

Me SC link I'll leave it to readers to decide who is spewing the shit. I would note that the clean pro attainable along the base of Dana's Arch was far more marginal than the stuff along Snow White. Anyway I think I am through with this thread. Cheers,

Ya pretty funny SC. I would only note our online conversation a few months ago regarding Dwarf Tossing. You quite clearly claimed it was a new line never climbed before and proclaimed it was one of the best routes at the Town Walls. What is odd is that except for a 10' section at the bottom it followed Snow White. Snow White was in every guide published since the mid '70s. Some friends and I freed a section of that route using obvious pin scars for nuts (ground up) in the late '80s. This was reported in all guidebooks since the late '80s as well. Despite the obvious pins scars, despite the fact that it was a long established route you claimed it was a completely new route. Yep you are a pretty perceptive guy. Anyway spray on!

Yikes a guy become incommunicado for awhile and come back to the typical CC.com spray fest. A few things should be noted. We added some bolts to Dana’s Arch because it was being beat to hell. (less than there are now and no anchor) Fingertip pulls had been transformed to thank god holds. As noted by MisterMo the nailing was A1 => flat out easy. We added some bolts. We figured the difference between A1 nailing and bolting is not really that great and we’d be saving the rock from more damage. We added the bolts 20+ years ago and as of last summer people continue to nail the route. This despite that section being called "free" in every guidebook since the mid ‘80s. ironically, the first time I met pope was when I heard “tap tap tap” of a hammer on a clean route at the Lower town Wall. Interested parties should search for a thread called “Rock Police” for the details. Is it a wilderness experience? Doubtful if the term wilderness is to have any meaning. Just before the base of Dana' is reached is a landing zone fuilled with broken bottles, trees and other debris thrown form the top. My fav item thrown off was a toilet. At the time most people simply were climbing up to the thread (The thread is no longer in existence; it was located near the top of the arch) and lowering off. The thread was a messy collection of slings. The rock up to there was of course badly damaged. The crack then turns vertical ends and a bolt ladder with a couple of bomber hook moves continues to Cheeto Ledge. Would pins have worked? Doubtful. One problem with the Town Walls is pins are constantly being stolen. Since we bolted it I have actually seen a fp appear and disappear in the arch. Two summers ago I recleaned a route I put up in the early 80s. It started off with a thin arch the first few moves were protected by a fp. Someone removed the fp and took a 3 inch scallop out of the rock in the process. Now it is very hard not to use this chipped hold. On Bat Skins I placed a couple of Kbs to protect a stemming section. They were almost immediately stolen. Bat Skins is in my opinion one of the classic WA stemming test pieces. Far more difficult than any other stem I have done in the state. Classic and yet no one does it because the pins were stolen. Considering that people were still nailing Dana's last summer and chance of pins working is reduced an absurd possibility. Sport climbing related? We bolted it before the days of sport climbing. Could it have been climbed clean when we bolted it? Not by any reasonable definition of the term. Are pins as good as bolts? In general no. I would note that I read once in the (Seattle Times?) that once of the bolts we placed broke in a fall! Turns out in this particular case a pins might have been stronger. Would bolts be yanked within a week in Yosemite? Maybe. It depends on who placed them. Without getting caught up in triva just look and the cover of Yosemite frees Climbs. The cover shot is of Cookie Monster. Original rating: A3 no bolts. Freed without bolts too I believe. How does this differ from the Zipper? Bolts were added to the Zipper Roof during an ill fated free attempt. Creative scarring was also inlvolved. (Those pins do come in handy!) I mention this because the same thing happened on the vertical section of the Dana’s Arch p1. There is a variation pitch to the Zipper Roof that has bolts that is not what I am referring to. This activity was most definitely related to the rise in sport climbing. I can clearly remember being told that I did not know how to put up modern routes” while debating the worth of some modern routes. At the time the debate between climbers regarding these chipping was quite spirited. Somewhat dissillusioned I finally ask Clint to remove my name from FA credits in his guide thinking that people would ask why I wasn’t listed and I could give my anti-chipping sermon. Several years ago I ran into one of those on the other side of the debate and was angry with myself for letting our friendship get ruined over such crap. Cheers

You can clearly see how much the trees have grown since then. As far as the start of the arch, it was freed on TR at 5.12. Then in a short time the 5.12 became 5.11, and it is now 5.10. My friend Terry and I added a few bolts (20+ years ago)while it was still 5.11+ thinking that it would keep the pin damage down but I was there last year and someone was nailing the larger size baby angles in, so the effort turned out to be not so effective. We stopped free climbing just before the crack turned vertical. There use to be a thread to lower off. Since then the thread has blown out.

It was Les Davenport? The "mandatory" free section btw is clean white rock. It's an amazing route. Virtually no pin scars. Wild features. Steep. Pretty impressive for a 40 year old route. Must be the limited season that keeps people away. Although the slime isn't really slippery when dry.

Anyway, on another subject do you know the guys who climbed the Waterway Route? That's a hell of a route and I always wondered what people thought of it in the 60s & early 70s.

Don - Greg Child placed a couple on the second pitch to protect a free route that very quickly moves to the left. With the exception of the first pitch, I haven't been on the route in at least 25 years but remember the top always had alot of bolts.

More info and petition.

Looks Great. Happy B-Day! Enjoy those teen years while you still can!

mmmm maybe Ben but... We were discussing two routes climbing thru the overhangs on Lower Castle Rock. You then claim that you have climbed all the routes right of the Fault. The upper pitches of the Fault form the right most route I know of on that part of the crag. Thus in that sense every route on the crag is left of most of the Fault – this includes those routes you say you have climbed. (all about ½ rope length slab routes) Squeak is to the left of the majority of the Fault. You call it route above the Fault not to the left, so it seems that you are being inconsistent with your use of the location describing terms. I would note that at any time on Squeak if you were to head directly right you would intersect the Fault. The same thing would happen if you chose to descend. The reverse is true for the route you mention.. Apesville and Monkey Lip, it should be noted, ascend through a layer of roofs that cuts across Lower Castle Rock. They share a approach up and to the left of p1 of the Fault. Brass Balls breaches the roofs by continuing basically straight up from the bottom of the Fault. The routes climbing through the right side roofs (including Squeak) share an approach climbing up and right from the start of the Fault. You said that you climbed every route to the right of the Fault. The entire Fault route has probably gone years without being climbed. I ask several questions with which you reply with inconsistent use of locational terms. I conclude that you are just being an obscurantist. In fact that night I pm’d a mutual friend asking if you were drunk! I would add that in discussing the location of the roof routes the first descripter used would be left or right side. Left and right would be defined by being left or right of the intitial pitch of the Fault.

mmmm maybe Ben but. We were discussing two routes climbing thru the overhangs on Lower Castle Rock. You then claim that you have climbed all the routes right of the Fault. The upper pitches of the Fault form the right most route I know of on that part of the crag. Thus in that sense every route on the crag is left of most of the Fault – this includes those routes you say you have climbed. (all about ½ rope length slab routes) Squeak is to the left of the majority of the Fault. You call it route above the Fault not to the left, so it seems that you are being inconsistent with your use of the location describing terms. I would note that at any time on Squeak if you were to head directly right you would intersect the Fault. The same thing would happen if you chose to descend. The reverse is true for the route you mention.. Apesville and Monkey Lip, it should be noted, ascend through a layer of roofs that cuts across Lower Castle Rock. They share a approach up and to the left of p1 of the Fault. Brass Balls breaches the roofs by continuing basically straight up from the bottom of the Fault. The routes climbing through the right side roofs (including Squeak) share an approach climbing up and right from the start of the Fault. You said that you climbed every route to the right of the Fault. The entire Fault route has probably gone years without being climbed. I ask several questions with which you reply with inconsistent use of locational terms. I conclude that you are just being an obscurantist. In fact that night I pm’d a mutual friend asking if you were drunk!

Gosolo - My point is simple. I stated it several times. "the 70s were not an era of zen masters". In fact I remember them as being even more full of conflict than now. That's all I am saying. I think I was clear about that several times in this thread. A narrow and specific argument not to be seen as being for or against rebolting of old exisitng routes. By the way in 30 years climbing I have never added a bolt to an existing free climb. I guess I am probably flogging a dead horse.

Ben on here. Go read the thread. His assertion was specifically to lend weight to his opinion. I would agree that erorrs ocur. I cant even remember if I led something or not years ago. The reason I brought this up was because it is a perfect example of someone trying to give authority to their aurgument with factually incorrect statements. He was making claims of the relative worth of routes. So his assertion that he has climbed all these routes is a big part of his argument.

From Piana's guide: Looks like the bolt was added before sport climbing!

As far as the bolts – big deal. I am not worried about them. In the years after we climbed it I saw no one climb it. Now I have seen a several parties on it and SC calls the "new" route the best new route at Index. I have even seen Timmy O’Neil on it. Call me a wimpy poser but I take more pleasure in seeing people climb the route as it is now even if they think that it is a ‘new” route. I only mentioned it because of the crap I see on CC.com. The posing and posturing and the certainty of the beliefs presented when they are most certainly wrong or at best uncertain is amazing. This is merely a case in point. Here’s another one just yesterday Ben claimed to have climbed all the routes right of the Fault. Turns out he hasn’t. All posts here that assume Croft placed the bolts are another example. Did he? I don’t know. I was told that he didn’t. I could be wrong. Certainly if he climbed the route with preexisting bolts pre-slung with long slings that should make a difference to the analysis. Everybody is out to make the other guy look small. Sad really.

Except for the first 15' it had been climbed. The first 15' was squeezed in between Snow White and All Purpose Duck. SOme of the handholds on Dwarf are in fact footholds of All Purpose Duck. A section that had been {edit to add word free} led free onsight without bolts now has an additional 5 bolts.

The layback section above the bolts is pretty straightforward. Back when there were only stoppers it was difficult to protect the main layback section. The thin crack at top, which is easily avoidable, is a bit trickier. Isn't this route .11 not .12? I am not sure that Croft even placed the bolts. The first one isn't just high off the ground it is simply in a fucked up location. Usually there is an old sling hanging from it. Certainly in the '80s there was a sling of variable worth virtually 100% of the time. If Croft didn't place the bolts and the sling was there when he made the FA does that change things? Just a question for all you deep thinkers. SC - Frog Pond is nothing like SPM. You once claimed (on CC.com) that a retro bolted route at Index was the best "new" route at Index. How should an outside observer take your comments?

So Squeak is to the right of the Fault?

Your thinking of Shriek of the Mutilated aren't you? I am thinking of what's between JJ Overhang and Gorilla Desparado? Is there no route?

How's Squeak of the Humiliated? Details please I always wanted to try it.

I think this logic is not supportable by reality. Examples: Index Keith’s Crack 5.11c Super crack climb. Was cleaned and then lost popularity and Cal thought he found a new route when he retrocleaned it. It’s a bit scruffy now. Definitely one of the better crack routes in the state. Top Pitches of JG 5.11c When cleaned these help make one of the best multi-pitch crag routes in WA. Now they are pretty dirty. I cannot think of any crag routes in WA that are clearly better. Leavenworth Apesville 5.11b Fun roof crack. Never seems to get done. Why? Who knows but it’s fun as hell. Monkey Lip 5.11 Mostly protected by old fixed KBs/Bugaboos. A good scrubbing and gear upgrade would bring this back to popularity. Ben, I would think that you would want people to climb existing routes at Castle rather than move out to other areas.

I went climbing last weekend with someone who has put up about 30 ground-up ascents this year alone. (Rock routes in Washington) I do not think that ground-up ascents are a thing of the past. By the way when did the extra bolt get added to the Superpin route? Wasn't it a long time ago?

Well I think we have pretty much talked this one to death. I am surprised by the italicized quote above. After all I wrote this in my last post: "I also never suggested that you or JH didn't adhere to what you say you did believe in." Also your response regarding the Nose climber does seem a bit cynical. In parting I offer the following comments. The % of clean routes ascended is relatively meaningless. For example a simple reason for that might turn out to be that bolting was just too hard and not that anyone believed in clean climbing. Another explanation might be that with so many crack lines waiting to be climbed climbers just didn't need bolt when putting up FAs. I was cleaning out my ofice and pulled two Mountain Magazines out at random. From their info section: Mountian 70 New Hampshire Paul Ross reporting: This short report compeletely recapitulates what I have been saying. The last line, where I added emphasis, is particularly revealing. Also same issue regarding Suicide Rock: Mountian 65 Yosemite Valley: Interesting sidebar the FA party was Peter Croft and friends. Our views on bolting might not be as far apart as you think - consider Flashclimber's post regarding Phone Calls From the Dead elswhere on this site. Anyway thanks for the discussion. I use to climb several times a year at Beacon so thanks for your efforts there.

1) I do not believe that there are two fully drilled holes. 2) It just seemed like a silly thing to do.