carolyn

I swore last night I was done with this post, but...but...but... There seems to be quite a bit of noise in the room, so I dont know how much of what I have to say will be heard. I dont even know if I will make sense. I will give it a go, anyway. I was chatting with one of my coworkers who has been climbing for close to 25 yrs. He has been around the block a couple times and has some amazing ascents under his belt in every aspect of climbing. I was telling him about my sport climbing experience...and boy did he go on and on about it! So, I shut up and listened carefully. He talked about the importance of learning to fall. If not for the knowledge of how to fall "safely", to help you become less afraid of falling. If you are afraid of falling, you tense up and the climbing becomes harder than it should be. Granted, he made it very clear that you have to understand when it is Okay to fall and when it is Not. He told me about a climber (whose name and accomplishments I cant remember), who was terrified of falling. So, he practiced...falling one foot, then two feet, then five...eventually falling up to thirty feet (I think this term was coined, sport jumping?). By the time he and his partner got up to this big route their fear was minimal, allowing them to focus on the climbing itself. Who ever this person was did a bunch of 'firsts', opening the doors for other climbers to see the possibilities and stop looking at their limitations. He then went on to give me some examples of how falling is not failing...its how you get better. ie/a sax player cant immediately hit all the notes. He is going to mess up (fall down) a lot before he gets better. Another example was how a youngin' who heads outside for the first time, only having climbed in the gym before can often times onsight a higher grade than those who climbed outside for decades (in a perfectionistic way - never allowing themselves to hang, flail, fall). Why is this? Probably because they dont have that fear, they dont set limitations on themselves, they dont try to climb perfectly. This is what allows them to get stronger both mentally and physically. Finally, he explained to me why he climbs. He enjoys seeing a line and trying to figure out how to climb it. For him to do that (he climbs 5.12-5.14, ice 6+, mixed ???somewhere up there???) its imperative he trains. Training is practice. Practice often involves messing up until we get it right. And, well, who can get better without practice? I still dont know where I stand on the issues being discussed. I think one thing that will help me form my opinions will be when I realize what my real goals/objectives are with climbing. DO I want to onsight high grades? Do I want to just have fun and do what I can w/what Ive got? Is there something more meaningful I want to get out of climbing than just climbing a route? I thought I knew, but I guess I really dont. Im sure thats another subject for a different post.

JayB- I think that is a part of it for me. I started climbing with folks who put me on super hard climbs I could never finish. They told me you can only get better if you do climbs that are too hard. Whatever! (I dont climb with them anymore). I dont get frustrated too easily. Frustration is a big sign for me to stop and move on. I will usually only 'work' it if I think its within my ability . Its taken some time, but Im finally recognizing when I "can" do something (maybe with a bit of extra thinking/hanging) and when its just too damn hard for me.

Ya know, I THINK I initially started this post because I was exposed to a new form of climbing and wanted to share my reactions. I wanted to voice some of the ethics I have begun to develop. At the same time, I did not want to completey negate those who think differently. I will be the first to admit I have not read this thread word for word. Its not that I dont care what others have to say on the subject. Its Mainly, because I have read, heard, and discussed this argument over and over again with a number of different people in the past. My thoughts on the subject have not changed much. Basically, as minx summed it up..."it all has its place". Bouldering/traversing has a place for me. It serves as a good training ground (pysically and mentally). It allows me to go into that 'flow' mode. Sport climbing MIGHT allow me to work on my confidence while on lead. I still dont think I am comfortable with allowing myself to hang from bolts in order to finish a lead. I dont know the reason behind that yet. It just doesnt feel right. It doesnt mean I see someone who does hangdog the route as a disgrace or wrong. On the flipside, I do enjoy toproping challenging routes. I cant remember how I climbed something from one minute to the next. So for me, the issue of rehearsing is just not an option. (maybe my strength will be in redpointing routes, eh? ) The ultimate climbing experience for me is leading a trad route, within my ability, yet somewhat mentally challenging. As Ive said before, I enjoy the puzzle of placing pieces - when, where, how , and why. I feel a different (and better) sense of accomplishment when I can lead a trad route. I enjoy climbing, period. I will follow what my gut (or heart) says is right. However, I wont dismiss the other opporunities available to me if they will make me stronger and better at what I really enjoy.

friends - they always ask and love having me share stories, photos, etc. Family - They dont ask, I dont tell. My family knows I will do what I want to do. I guess they just figure if they dont know then its not true.

ah, that takes away all the adventure from the day or maybe not, since the building is stucco (sp?)

Honestly, the wierdest flight Ive ever taken was less than a week after 9/11 from Seattle to Mpls. My first flight was cancelled...second flight cancelled..third flight took me to memphis...layover flight to Milwaukee...cancelled...next flight...hours later...fly to chicago...then detroit...eventually...Mpls. Shit! I could have walked faster! You could see people checking each other out and a lot of fear/paranoia on people's faces. Very eerie feeling. Another flight was from Mpls to Detriot and then to Sault St Marie, Mi. I didnt realize I was taking one of those mini planes from Detroit. Kinda nervous about it. Snowy, windy, bouncy ride, until we stop for a 'rest' at the airport my dad flew out of before his plane crashed years ago. F'in Freaky! Thankfully as soon as a plane takes off I fall fast asleep...so I usually miss all the action

Do I wake up at the crack of dawn tomorrow in search of a new bouldering/traversing area I only have vague directions to before I go work? Or Do I sit around at home waiting for the mail (and paycheck), so I can pay my rent (already late...as usual)?!

copy cat! google search

a michigan band?

If you havent tried this yet, you might get a few chuckles (or not)... Go to google Type in "weapons of mass destruction" Hit the "I feel lucky" button, rather than the search button. Read the 'error' page carefully.

I was just wondering myself if anyone was chatting, as Im trying to kill time before bed...listening to the pixies and drinkin a brew. Anyone wanna join?

Not sure if these comments were directed toward me. I kind of think so, since you quoted me. Maybe the original post wasnt entirely read or clear ...cause I dont think anywhere in that post I stated I didnt like or agree w/ sport climbing. It was a foreign concept to me, in which I was sharing my observations -both pluses and minus'. I dunno, I have a thing about falling...even on the bolts...even after watching someone take some whippers and continue on. Might come from my ice climbing mindset (?). I know there has been endless debate on that subject as well. I understand all sides. I think its just a matter of me forming my own opinion/ethics which will work best for my climbing style.

what does french freed mean?

Now look what you have done to my post, dru!!

Oh yes it is! awwwww, maybe I should rename it...sport climbing trip report. Ya know, I never understood bouldering either. THought it was silly and a pointless. Although its really not my cup o tea, either, I can see it being useful for (my) training purposes. Heck, those of us in the 'flatlands' (as dru would be so kind to point out) have to take what we can get! I think minx summed it up nicely...."it all has its place"

Well, its a good thing I need practice on my downclimbing skills then, eh? Doesnt water start flowing north at a certain point in the mississippi (I should know this, seeing that it begins in the state I live)? Or rivers flow north in canada? Something like that?!?!? North is UP!

This post and the thoughts brought into it are inspired by Muffy! I went out to a bolted area this weekend and climbed. I did my first sport lead(s). I watched a woman (similar to muffy's personal experience which she posted in spray) push herself on a climb, hanging from each bolt for extended periods of time...downclimbing to her last bolt, etc. I saw (for the first time) someone take not just one but two big whippers. I think it scared me more than himself. I also watched him get right back up and keep climbing. I watched my partner push himself more than I have ever seen him do on trad leads. Im not for or against sport climbing. However, Ive been a bit backwards in my learning (ice before rock, trad before sport), so this way of climbing was a bit foriegn to me. How could someone just hang from a bolt time and time again and call that climbing?!??! How can you allow yourself to let it be ok to fall?!?!??! How can you take the risk to go well beyond your limits on lead?!?!? Oh ya...and all the chalk used! My gwad! (j/k...I actually pulled out my chalk bag and used some when I remembered). After thinking about it some and reading over muffy's post, I can see the benefits of clipping bolts on occassion (for me anyway). I can see how it boosted my confidence a bit on lead. I guess if I were to catch a fall for the first time OR fall myself for the first time, i would rather do it attached to a bolt. There could be some good practice involved with downclimbing to your last bolt, giving ya more confidence if you had to do that with pro instead. The point of having the opportunity to push yourself w/a tad less risk involved is golden. I think I enjoy the flavor of trad climbing more. I like the puzzle of where/when/how to place pro. I look forward to the wide range of climbing opportunities trad routes have to offer. However, I dont think I can knock sport climbing, yet. It seems be a good supplement and training tool for the things I want to do in the future. <end of babble>

Thanks for the input. Ya, that climbing w/o thinking is a productive and fun way to go. The greatest gift i have gotten from climbing thus far is how it helps give my mind a rest. My mind usually just turns off. Things have been different since I started leading, tho. It probably does have to do with wheather or not Im willing to take the risk of falling like I would on TR. its strange how when I dont think about the risk, I climb better. Ive been working hard at getting myself into the 'flow' state by doing a lot of long traverses. Its helped me pick up some good techniques which I carry over into tr'ing and leading (ie/closing my eyes, deep breaths, imagery, etc). As Backes says, "your body is made of mostly water...water doesnt think...it just flows...be like the water when you climb". Might sound cheesy, but it seems the more I climb, the more sense it makes.

Ive noticed a tendancy to be more conservative in my movement while leading. I can tr the same route and have no problems with a small dyno move, high step, crimping, etc. Then I try to lead it and I wind up getting stuck in certain spots that proved not to be an issue in the past. In the long run, I think it makes me more tired by hesitating or trying to find a different way to climb the route...thus more vunerable to a fall. Have or do others experience this as well? Is it just a matter of leading more? Or is it a mental game I need to deal with sooner than later?

How about spectra? I just slung a bunch of hexes with it and cant tell you how much it sucked. Okay...it sucked sooooooo much that the thought of cutting and burning the tails on the fishermens knot makes me want to pull it all out and start over with a different kind of cord. Yes, I know there needs to be a good tail with spectra...unfortunately I had a great deal of difficulty tying the knot because of the stiffness....thus extra long tails which need to be cut.

alright! I wanna know which sonic boom just took out my electricity! DOnt they know how long it takes to reboot my puter?!!?!?!?!

oh, but you havent been to the Mall of America. Plenty of climbing there! Seriously! Talk about scary malls!

ya, my cat is still hiding under the bed.

Im game if anyone is around. Its got to be quicker than it was for me the other night. Damn was I tired the next day!