rat

anybody seen the northeast side of pyramid pk. or j-berg within the last couple days? thanks.

matt and diana, i'm just saying that the fee demo program is part of the recreation/wilderness management side of the forest service and logging is part of the multiple use/forest management side of things. these are two different issues dealt with by two different, sometimes competing factions within the agency. for instance, the blue ribbon coalition (pro fee-demo) would love to keep all usfs roads open for their orv constituents even though the current practice is to decommission roads (regrade the cut/fill slopes and pull out the culverts). also be aware that the maintenance cost of many usfs roads is shared with private corporations who use them to gain lawful access to their own properties. this is another legacy of the checkerboard land give-away during railroad construction. the usfs and private timber companies could do a much better job of maintaining their open roads in order to minimize erosion. i can't argue with the fact that lots of habitat has been lost, degraded, or otherwise altered. i do believe that the folks at the district/forest level work hard to maintain what habitat is left using a multi-species planning approach. this approach can easily be highjacked by the politics of both environmental groups and the timber industry. fhf3723, i don't really understand the point you are trying to make with your first sentence so i won't comment. i agree that the money that they waste on fancy new trucks is embarassing (subsidizing yet another industry?). alasdair, i agree that the amount of fuel left on the forest floor after logging has the potential to increase fire hazard in the short term. i have heard of some studies that appear to de-bunk the fire-reduction argument for thinning but have not read them. however, tree survival during/after a fire is generally related to fire intensity, tree diameters/species, and the percentage of remaining live crown. we can argue what is a bigger hazard: 1. an historically over-stocked forest with a bunch of small diameter sickly understory trees that will allow a fire to ladder into the crown, or 2. a multi-aged thinned stand with some quick burning flashy fuel (the branches). the usfs now piles (by dozer and/or hand) and burns most of this slash in dry-site logging units. yellowstone needed to burn as do many areas in the pacific northwest that have been altered by our suppression of fire. again, i do not support the fee demo because it is a form of double taxation. and as far as permits go, authority is to be ridiculed, outwitted, and avoided. climbers can easily sneak into the enchantments if need be (most routes can be done in a day from the car by a fit party) and most/all of the good skiing occurs outside of the permit season. with that, i'm done with my apologist spew thread creep and going skiing. drink, spew, fight, rat

First of all, we subsidized the logging industry for decades. That industry was one of the most heavily subsidized in history. Now we have to pay to enjoy the outdoors. It was $70 for camping and parking permits for four adults and two kids!! We camped at Eight Mile Lake for two nights. I kept wondering how many families could afford these expenses and teach the next generation to appreciate the mountains. Why should we have to pay Disneyland prices for this? don't get me wrong. i disagree with the fee demo program and am ambivalent about the wilderness permit system. the public subsidizes alot of things (some worse than others) and will continue to do so. simply put, if you don't want fire to clean up your forest, you're gonna have to pay someone to do the gardening.

matt, sorry for the tone of my previous comment but i sometimes get tired of the constant usfs bashing that goes on here even though i am not a usfs employee. i will confine my comments to the northcentral washington area since they might not hold true for certain other areas. the following is based on my belief that logging is a legitimate use of national forest land and is desirable in areas where previous fire suppression has created the potential for intense stand-replacement fires that, in the long run, will do more harm than selective logging. if you fundamentally disagree with this, the following info will just seem like spin. regardless, it is a gross simplification of a complex issue involving a self-perpetuating government agency. the usfs has systematically moved away from clearcut logging in the drier forests of washington. to get a logging sale through the planning stage requires a lot of work by the wildlife, botany, fisheries and hydrology/geology crews. the list of birds and other mammals, amphibians, plants, etc. that require surveys seems to grow each year. information from these surveys is then used to modify, exclude, or place timing/equipment restrictions on the planned logging units. it is also used when determining the types/sizes of trees removed (euphemistically called "treatments" by the usfs). logging practices have also slowly changed---skidding only in the winter and more emphasis on helicoptor logging to minimized soil compaction. of course, this drives up both the cost of preparing a sale and the costs of the actual logging. pressure for reform has been spurred by both lawsuits (mainly the endangered species act) and increasing amounts of scientific data. regardless of the method of change, the result is that professionals within the lower levels of the organization (district/forest level) are using more of a science-based approach. logging still occurs on federal land in the pacific northwest but at a much reduced rate and with more environmental restrictions than ever (for now). based on this info i disagree with your initial statement that "they seem completely uninterested in placing any restrictions on destructive logging practices." the usfs is obviously not perfect in this regard and i often disagree with some of the things that they have done/want to do so i cannot say they have "systematically protected the mountain forest environment in their management of logging practices on National Forest lands around Leavenworth." that is a much higher standard that implies some undefined historical period. i do think they are now trying to place "forest health" (buzz word alert) ahead of the old policy of "getting the cut out." unfortunately, george w. will likely push the pendulum the opposite way for a while. one final note. do not confuse what occurs on usfs land with what occurs on the many square miles of checkerboard lands (legacy of railroad construction) that are owned by private individuals, corporations (longview fibre corp. owns alot along hwy 2 and hwy 97), or irrigation districts. drink, spew, fight, rat

Lastly, to many of us who enjoy outdoor recreation, it seems particularly ironic that the Forest Service (Deforest Service as Cavey rightfully calls them) would restrict entry into the Alpine Lakes in the name of preserving the fragile wilderness environment while at the same time they seem completely uninterested in placing any restrictions on destructive logging practices. while agreeing with the majority of your argument, you used a broad brush on the final bit. the wilderness act and the usfs mandate regarding multiple use are 2 separate issues. "uninterested in placing any restrictions on destructive logging...." where have you been? sorry about the thread creep.

well, let the almighty moderators deal with it then. change the channel. trask, bite down hard and emasculate yourself.

spam, yes, but ya might want to give the guy a break considering the state of pakistan's tourist economy. see http://alpinefsd.8k.com/expedition.html email addresses are the same and a number of other alpine club of pakistan members also have hotmail addresses. i tend to think the guy is legit. the link doesn't work for some reason (i'm stupid). do a google search for his name and you will get to the site.

if you enjoyed "south" and lewis & clark's diary, you might like "sources of the river: tracking david thompson across western north america" by jack nisbet. thompson explored western canada and part of the nw united states for the hudson's bay company. would also recommend redmond o'hanlon books like "into the heart of borneo" for easy reading.

sunday cruise is a neglected classic.

climbed it in 1989 although we had to traverse off the last bit when we couldn't find a route through the monster cornices that formed that year. other ascents could easily have occurred prior to ours and it has probably been climbed at least a handful of times since then. it's been said before--lots of washington climbers are relatively reticent so you will never really know for sure what has/has not been climbed, skied, etc.

feralp is correct. the snow creek trail (usfs easement of some sort) is located on land owned by the icicle irrigation district. it owns the land from icicle creek to the wilderness boundary as well as a significant chunk of land north of icicle creek. both areas were heli-logged in 1990 as you said. be happy that they didn't clearcut the area as they had the right to do. the proposed thinning area is immediately around the leavenworth national fish hatchery (department of interior land, not usfs/department of agriculture). a stupid area to waste tax dollars but certainly not the tragedy that the news article and harriet bullit makes it out to be. harriet bullit and her well-to-do cadre of sycophants can kiss my ass. all she wants is more environmental brownie points for her already grossly over-sized "retreat". none of us pays the full cost of the resources we use and abuse and no government will ever allow it because it would hamper economic growth. now scurry out and use that credit card one more time today.

don't forget about the ear fetish.

thanks for the rage. i was getting sick and tired of the saccharine sweet cpt. caveman. drink, spew, fight.

just returned from wasting some time up the cascade river road with a headcold. there are some thin low-angle flows on the slabs below cascade pass and a couple steep thin drools formed directly below the sill glacier (if that's your thing). the fault-line route on the left side of j-berg's northeast face looks like it might be a good mixed climb right now---likely need a bivy if you went to the summit. as of 2 weeks ago, the 1985 route on j-berg (couldn't scope it from the parking lot this morning) and the triplets couloirs looked like they could use a bit more precip. [ 11-01-2002, 02:18 PM: Message edited by: rat ]

am unsure if this last bit of storm is going to bring things back into shape but the weather sounds good this week. am looking for a partner for nw couloir of eldorado, ne face of redoubt, or other good lines in the north cascades/sw british columbia. send a pm. i have to work monday (10/28) but could be rolling by monday night/tuesday morning.

rumour has it that sun valley-ites and other potatoes have developed some rock climbing areas in the owyhee. tim toula states in rock 'n road that leslie gulch is "tony yaniro's secret manufactured area." no other beta.

quote: Originally posted by michael_layton: [QB A couple guys went in to do Tuning Fork on Bardean the same day as us. I would be totally amazed if they got up it, do to the serious lack of visibility from fri night till now. Their truck was still there, so they must've done the approach. Blech! [/QB] we climbed to the top of the flying buttress on saturday then bailed due to very poor visibility above. of course the clouds thinned out slightly in the early afternoon but we were enroute to the cooler by then. hidden pillar looks like a must-do. the approach was a cakewalk. nice job on the traverse, crackhead. that looks like a fine time.

we started up the flavelle-howe, traversed to variazioni to escape some grunge, then finished up flavelle-howe without pins sometime in the mid-1990's. take don's advice about the thin pegs. you may find that you don't have much daylight left by the time you get back to your nursery pass bivy. we didn't and we weren't really slouchin'. it looked possible to do the north face of clark in a day from nursery pass but crampons looked like a real good idea when we were there. the photo in mclane's book makes it look much mellower. doing the route and getting back to your car in a day (especially after doing vienesse) would be another question. might as well give it a try---worse come to worse, you'll only miss a day of work. any info on road conditions? i haven't been able to reach canfor since we gutted their timber industry.

actually, i was the one to tip off the usfs in 2000 regarding the noontime rock nest. no federal employees have ever rapped into the nest area(s). telescopes were used to observe nesting/foraging behavior and the number of fledgings. as jim pointed out, all of noontime and midnight (and likely "no-time" rock, as well) are now officially closed until 7/31 under penalty of fines, death, or worse from larry. don't be a selfish, brainless, "my user-group rules" shit-head and climb somewhere else until then. more people = more fuckups = more cops

[ 06-03-2002, 09:33 AM: Message edited by: rat ]

while peregrines are being taken off the threatened species list, they and all other raptors are still protected by the federal migratory bird act. seasonal closures and the amounts of restricted area seem to vary from region to region (el cap, cochise stronghold, etc.). the restrictions on climbing at midnight/noontime are relatively tame from what i have seen elsewhere. a seasonal closure seems like a small price to pay to have such cool birds in the area. besides, there is alot of other climbing "real estate" out there.

quote: Originally posted by Wallstein: Then there was another route way to the right, like 75 yards. It started with a short finger crack and then ended on a long slab. Weirdest thing though, there are bolts next to the crack. gordon b.'s "handiwork". ya gotta love the man but the bolts next to the crack couldn't have been his proudest moment.

bug, i can't believe you are trying to get laid on cc.com.