Peter_Puget

Back from my first ever two weeks visit the in-laws, I can say that one factor to offset the demands of a wife/children is to have in-laws in a sunny state with climbing nearby. In my case the location is Southern California. Being relatively out of shape getting out for an extended period of time is somewhat pointless as I am beaten down after the second day. Being able to sneak out several times in a two week period is better than a whole week of continuous climbing. Now I have to get them to move to Arizona!

Ok enough with all this nonesense - let's talk rock climbing! I am heading off to JTree soon and am wondering if anyone has climbed the Last Unicorn route in the several years and if the bolt stcking halfway out has been replaced.

Dwayner – Reading your last post I couldn’t help but to think of that little blonde girl in Little House on the Prairie. You know the spoiled shop keepers daughter. Anyway thanks for at one point holding me in high esteem. Now that I have fallen from favor, I feel that the “poster of the year” title is a distinct possibility. While logic, reason, fairness and self control have often been lacking in your posts, they have a facile charm and at least for this site at certain original flair. Yet slowly creeping in is a repetitiveness that I do believe is threatening your status here in the CC.com community. For example, please review your earlier posts to this very thread. Perhaps the fan mail you have received has lifted you to such high a level that the air is so rarefied as to impede your thinking. Maybe a sabbatical is in order. Have a good weekend – and I really really mean that. Peter By the way where is that crag?

For the record I weighed around 135# when I was 18. Couldn’t do one arms but could do 35 or so regular pulls. In my 30s at 180# I could do much fewer pull-ups but it took a very short time of training for one arms before I could do one. I am one who agrees that there is a significant structural component to the ease with which one arms can be accomplished. Some people may never be able to do - some may find them easy but I bet a significant number can learn to do one. I would also bet that there is a positive correlation between the difficulty with which one has to train for one arms and the likelihood of injury while training. I have lost more partners due to injury than any other reason. Something to think about while training. Someone once told me the key to success in rock climbing was not to get hurt. [ 12-06-2001: Message edited by: Peter Puget ]

Pope - Interested parties can easily look up your posts by using your ID#. From your last post and the one I posted I can easily imagine you at he keyboard deciding between epilepsy and cataplexy. That short pause as sweat forms on your brow, muscles involuntarily twitching as the inevitable choice is made. Dwayner – Fill your up your love cup! And stuff you bra cups as well. I think once you step out of your closet and let Donna free you and Pope will feel much better - certainly less uptight and looser. Sure your families might be put off for awhile, but your CC.com family will never abandon you. Hugs. Peter Keep those PMs coming. Your encouragement and, ok I’ll admit it, sometimes criticisms are helping me to become all the poster I can be. Remember: Take the “T” out of poster and it’s…. Vote Peter Puget for poster of the year. Jon – How are the votes running now?

Imagine a smooth slab split by a seam. Now imagine that this seam is climbable at 5.12 but that no “clean” protection can be placed. Now imagine that the seam can be aided using destructive techniques. W, can I accurately assume that you would advocate that the crack get nailed until scars develop that are sufficient to enable the route to be free climbed? Would it make a difference how much the scaring reduced the grade or how large the scars became? I would assume your answer to this would be the amount of scaring or reduction in grade would not matter.(Side note: some advocates of the “Yosemite School” as defined by you have abused this by creatively scarring cracks for freeclimbing) As you feel this would contradict the “way things have evolved in the valley for decades.” Do you think that someone can hold a contrary view without being a person looking to “stoke their ego on their FFA.” I certainly can imagine many people holding such a contrary view without even desiring to put up an FFA. You make no argument as to why your perceived Valley Ethic should be followed. For those who don’t know the first 5.10 valley routes had rap placed bolts. In the 80s didn’t Yosemite stalwart Ron Kauk place bolts on rappel? In the nineties the Yosemite Free Climbs guidebook by Don Reid has a cover shot showing a retro bolted trad climb. I wasn’t thinking of Wheat thin as it was ascended long after 5.10 had become common place, but your reference to it reveals your knowledge of the Yosemite Tradition. It was “tradition” to use fixed ropes at one time. I am not advocating any of those things. What I am saying is that Yosemite Ethic can be evaluated several ways. You pick one that appeals to you, but that is not to say that it appeals or is even visible to everyone. Even assuming that I did accept the Yosemite tradition as being a valid concept, why should we choose it over the traditions worked out at other areas? Boulder? East Germany? The Verdon? Why not have two traditions as in England – one for gritstone and another for limestone? Your first argument that the route would be scarred despite the bolting is of course accurate in hindsight but it might not have been so evident at the time of the bolting. To judge actions by the end of a series of contingencies following them is a bit unfair. My take is that the subsequent nailers are guilty of far worse behavior. Is it also true that you have no first hand knowledge of the state of the route at the time it was bolted? To me that would be important in judging the actions of the bolters although given your apparently rigid stance with you version of the “Yosemite ethic” I understand why it wouldn’t matter to you. It is this reliance on the Yosemite tradition that pushes you away the inchoate (and potentially more fruitful) argument that you cursorily described. As far as people currently nailing free routes. I have seen someone nailing the bottom of #10 clipping the bolts as back up. Last winter a friend of mine said he saw someone nailing Iron Horse. Just this past summer someone was nailing Bwana Dick. I think that there are very few hard and fast rules in climbing. To me letting a crack get scarred to avoid a bolt itself can be an abomination. Whenever I hear someone advocating a rigid code of behavior based on their view of tradition I am reminded of a phrase Thomas Mann said in reference to the NAZIs : the manure pile of myth. It is often merely a flimsy veil to obscure the fact that is really being said is “I want it that way because I want it that way.” It also changes the debate by putting any dissenters into the position of being unethical by virtue of their dissent. My poor fragile Pope! You became so mad at me and I don’t recall saying anything as blatantly insulting to you as “Idiot” Play nice or go home. By the way by merely reducing the debate to one of aesthetics you reduce it to no more than an argument over what color is best! Rumor has it that Mondrian use to sit with his back to outdoor views because he preferred the man made over nature! Sidebar for those who read the fragile poster thread: Since I never read your PMs I was not following your request! Thus your speculation regarding why I stopped sending you PMs was simply wrong. I bring this up because you seem to have no problem assessing the bravery and motivations of bolters (most of whom you have never met) Why would you be any more accurate with them than with me? Thanks for all the PMs! I appreciate your support and want to assure you all that I would be a noble and worthy "Poster of the Year"

W – All we can do is attempt to take everyone’s experiences and preferences into account while climbing. As a group we must be willing to accept some actions we don’t approve of and expect other to give us slack at times.

pope Rope Lead Member # 410 posted 08-09-2001 09:22 PM --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Hey SlapAss,I've always been a nice guy, and you know it! I get sick of people justifying their bolt drilling by countering that, "Hey, trad climbers are just a bunch of narrow-minded assholes. They're so macho, so arrogant. "F" them and their ethics, man." It's not about ego, kids. It's about preservation. It's about escaping the tame, overly engineered metropolitan areas and finding some clean rock. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------Posts: 400 | Registered: Feb 2001 | IP: Logged From memory I think I was pretty close. You are great for my ego And don't forget to vote for me! Peter Puget "Poster of the Year"

Actually you are close but actually incorrect with your "reaction" correction. The whole TC thread was in fact started because a mysterious hero was warning of defective bolts. In your replies you condemed both the original replacement and defective replacement.That thread was my awakening to the amazing world of online BS.

Only during the holiday season. I am wearing red this weekend!

W – Why no answers, but lots of questions for me? Basically I think that in most cases the answers to your questions all are contingencies. In essence I think that there is a point that hard nailing becomes a fun form of rock destruction. Should they stop? I don’t know but I have thought about that question before. Those nailing should consider their actions before criticizing others. With regard to Dana’s Arch, I haven’t climbed it for a couple years but thinking back in my opinion had the nailing ceased after the bolting the route would have been less aesthetically compromised than in its current condition unbolted. Generally for me climbing/looking at pin scars is almost always less pleasing than the natural rock so I would have to say that a few bolts near a seam would be generally preferable to scars. Months ago here I suggested that maybe routes should be left as top ropes! So maybe one of the factors I would consider would be “top ropability”. As far as “Mad Bolters” go, Dana’s Arch was bolted a long time ago I doubt the current outlook of climbing had any impact on the decision to bolt it. Here are a couple of more scenarios for you. Suppose we went to Dan’s Arch (It hasn’t been freed in this scenario) and were going to climb the initial section using clean tech when possibly but with certainty that hammered pins would be needed. Me being a coward stayed on the ground and belayed you as you began to climb. You went up a move or two and declared, “Peter I just know that if that super hot shit climber we saw in Vegas were here he would free this mutha using just “clean” gear.” Now would you come down and leave? What if you could only imagine it being free? What if your usual partner could free it? By the way lots of damage can be caused by cam hooks! Use them judiciously. Error confession: It may not have been the first three but rather first two 5.10s. If I remember Scott some of the bolts in question were in fact bad. (ie defective bolts)If I may ask exactly what reaction do you get from the bolt ladder on City Park.

Is there an upper range of weight you'd recomend? Do standing raises have much risk of back injury?

You are right they are cracks routes. I'll give you a hint the hard one begins whith an "S". Are you the same guy that once gave a certain person loads of shit for replacing the bad bolts on Town Crier on Rec.Climbing?

In the interests of clarification I thought I’d jump back in and add a few details that were missing from Popes little write up. Back in the days of the DDD fiasco Pope sent me an PM from out of the blue. In it he stated that he knew the evil bolters and that although he was appalled by their actions he was not going to “chop” the bolts. I thought this odd as he already declared his intention of chopping the bolts on “the Edge”. I responded to his PM with a query: “If your friend bolts something bad you won’t chop it because he is your friend but if a stranger did the same thing you would chop it?’ In his response he did not deny this confusing fact. It was here that I first learned of the fine moral fiber of the Pope. Later I sent him the two PMs mentioned in his post. In a public thread he was defending himself by flat out calling himself “a nice guy.” The person he was arguing against was not me. Silly but as a “newbie” to the web I assumed that the privacy of the PM should be respected so I took the opportunity to provide him with an example of the Pop not being a nice guy. The second PM he mentions was something to the effect of me saying:“You go climbing. You meet Lou. He is friendly. He asks how you are doing. He wishes you luck.. You get home and write a post mocking him. Yep, you’re a nice guy.” These were all written months ago. Oddly my last comments referencing the Pope are in the recent “cowardly acts” thread. In it I am actually the third person to note Pope’s bad attitude. I am not sure who the fragile poster truly is because a simple review of Pope’s recent posts reveals I haven’t responded to him at all. In the thread “Physically Challenging Climbs” the Cassin Ridge is mentioned as is The Chronic” at Si. This one thread captures the variety of climbing. What other sport is so diverse? The more amazing thing is that neither of these routes interests me in the slightest. (Climbing is even more diverse than those two poles) Strenuous climbing up a high mountain and hang dogging a sport route have virtually no appeal to me. Yet it is exciting to hear about Haireball’s and Sexy’s adventures. Their excitement is contagious That both such extremes can be discussed is a testament to the potential of this site. The constant “dissing of sportclimbers” (Lambone’s words) and other classes of climbers only serves to keep us from this potential. It is also clearly wrong headed so I admit I am guilty of calling bullshit to such crap. But believe me the PMs had nothing to do with it. Hey I can’t be all bad once I even sent Cavey a topo!

Nope the explanation is simply you spout half truths and consistently slam whole classes of people and their motivations. How many people have been ridiculed and condemded by you and your counter parts Dwayner and Donna. As the recent postings regarding Boulder illustrate the issues you raise have serious consequences. By not raising them with an honest intention to engage in a real debate you increase tension and cause more harm than good. Erik would probably agree we disagree dramaticly on some issues but I have was respectful in my PM. You yourself have not suggested I was otherwise.

Quote W: “what you are saying is that what began as an aid line (read: trad, a crack system) and which frequently got TR'd no doubt by some of the same people who in order to get up there pounded pins in it, before the bolts were placed, was dumbed down because the pin scars got bigger and now it's not as aesthetic” Now how did you get that I said that the route was TR’d frequently? You simply made it up. Your remaining discourse is no more clearly reasoned. For example, you say lets follow the example of Yosemite. OK I say lets use the examples of the first three 5.10s in the Valley! In order to fully understand what I was saying you need to read what I incorporated into my post by reference. Stating the decline in difficulty was done only to indicate the extent of the damage that occurred subsequent to the bolting. Dwayner: Inches of rock have come off that route since it was bolted and several additional bolts have been added as well. Regardless of your thoughts on the bolting I do not see how you can consider the bolting of Dan’s Arch at worst, but a failed experiment with good intentions. Not mentioning the extent that rock that has come off since the initial bolting or the fact that additional bolts have been added indicates either ignorance on your part or certain mean disingenuous spirit that I have often decried as residing on this site. Of course the are less flattering options too! Sweet Dreams Peter

For those unaware see my previous comment s under a thread started by Herr Dwayner’s doppelganger “Donna Two Step” Suffice to say that before bolting the arch went from being a solid 5.12 TR to a 5.11 one. After bolting the route became marginal 5.11a. All this was the result of significant damage to the rock by aid climbers.

While I am certain the villain here does have some real concerns about bolting that can in some imagined context be viewed as noble, they are, however, subsumed by his/her more base motivations and thus become merely an excuse to perform antisocial acts behind. Much like Pope's criticisms they miss the mark, overeach and by their own lack of logic and suasion they reveal the dark side of human nature. Sad. Sad. Sad.

Where the hangers removed in such a way that a person leading one of the routes could be put into an unexpected and dangerous situation? Actions like this along with irresponsible bolting or chipping have an impact that is not limited to either the areas or the people directly involved.

How long does it take for traffic to ease up coming from Seattle? That is will most of the congestion be gone after 6?

The use of man made holds has unfortunately placed a shadow over the entire Fossil area. The Boyal Robbins Wall Area mentioned by Cavey is pretty much a "natural" area with climbs offering a wide range of difficulties. The climbing at Boyal Robbins is not unlike that at Smith Rocks. Just don't think holes, think funcky rocks sticking out all over the place. The routes there are less than half a rope length and are pretty fun. My faves are the .11a pictured in the Smoot guide and the arete just to its right. While it would be possible to climb some of the routes in a light rain my guess is that most of the routes at the BR Wall would not be climbable in the rain. Due to the limited (at least if you eschew bolt-ons) amount of climbing and the length of the approach unless you just want to go exploring I would think twice about going there unless you live nearby. By the way to put that last recommendation into perspective:I don't live in the area and planned on going there a week ago.

Interesting Haireball! Please give us some examples in this thread illustrating the phenomenon.

Sexual - Are you saying that every 5.11b you have ever climbed has been rated (at least from your experience) correctly? None have been significantly easier or harder than the rest?

My original quote: "Yikes Tom did you update an old SDS Vietnam War position paper? Apparently the bombing had some effect witness the Taliban’s recent change of fortune. I wonder if the US hadn’t intervened would England have been brought to its knees? Certainly a question but certainly a valid factor you conveniently left out." Toms quote: "As far as my comments on the effects of bombing, PP, they didn’t come from an SDS position paper. The allies commissioned the Strategic Bombing Review after WW2 that came to essentially those conclusions: bombing doesn’t demoralize civilians, it just pisses them off and encourages resistance. Bombing London would have never won the Battle of Britain; only a land invasion, which Hitler never contemplated, would have done that." My reference to a SDS position paper was refering to your post in total and something of a bad joke. I never was in conflict with the review you mentioned . I said what if the US never was involved what wold have been the effect? It's arguable was my point. Imagine a landlocked England, the Germans supreme how long would England accept bombng before it gave up? My guess is the answer isn't forever. Thus I believe that it is possible to at some point to destroy a country's morale. I guess I wasn't clear enough with my point. On a deeper level my point was that the cases you mention are not the same as the current situation. I think we all know there is a significant difference between the strategic bombing in WWII and the bombing currently happening Afganistan. To compare to two is simply wrong. In fact virtually all of your comparison are of a similar legitimacy. Here is a quick survey of the world: Europe subject to Islamic terrorists and insurgencies, Central Asia - the same, East Asia - the same. Africa - the same. Hey guess what! They are pissied at everyone! Now come up with a general theory supporting those facts and I bet you find that the US as such is not an important factor.

Amen Rod