Peter_Puget

In the mid 70's Jim Collins use to hype climbing stairs. He called stair training "Pyschometrics" because he trained that way to make the second FA of Psycho Roof in Eldorado. PP

Galaxy - Once a friend and myself tried climbing OS, Orbit and Galxy in a day. We did the first two and then bailed on Galaxy because it is a bad route. After getting down I regretted it because I knew it was so bad I would never go back and missed the opportunity to tick it off. PP

LOL Trolls? not me but since Off Belay didn't start until the 70's I sense a troll from you silly! Lowe cams were a single cam device spring loaded but no trigger bar.

I like the parts about crack jumars and clean climbing. And of course all the hip crowds. Some things never change! PP

So here I am opening boxes and digging thru closets for old mags trying to research a summer project and I come across an old issue of Ascent (one of the first climbing mags I ever purhcased). After reading this I thought others might find it interesting. It is from the 1972 issue. Sorry attachment didn't work. Try the link. http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/plab/showphoto.php?photo=699 PP

PP

Only after the groovy new Crag Forum is up and running! P

"Sure, flats are OK." PP

Pretty Much - Smarty!

Anyone going? PP

See attachment!

Sloth's comment about the optional cam is a good one. If you are referring to the "Actual Cave" I would say only a couple of the routes there are worth doing. I say that not having done any of the .13s. The route on the far left (100% Beef) is juggy but short and not really in the cave. Come to think of it it is a bit of a stretch to call it a cave at all. The route just to the right of Beef (Bikini Girls) is a good route. Short crux but fun climbing. The next two are actually in the cave and I haven't even tried them but they didn't look juggy to me. The route to the right of those two routes is a fun crack that joins Mr. Big. I did this route in the middle of winter, so it must not get too wet. Mr. Big starts to the right of the cave and traverses left across the cave's top. Definately juggy climbing until the end. If you mean the Cave at North Fork, my advice would be not to waste your time going there. PP

I need to loose mine. It's taking over my life. I should have been a hit man. Not alot of hours. Good pay. Travel. PP

After seeing Climb4christ posting on RC.com I realized this thread was addressed to a real person and i finally read it. Thinking back to the first Gulf War I am reminded of these comments: "Well," he said, "my daddy, he didn't leave me much, you know he was a very simple man, but what he did tell me was this, he did say, son, he said" - there was a long pause, nervous laughter from the crowd - "he say, you know it's possible to become so defiled in this world that your own father and mother will abandon you and if that happens, God will always believe in your ability to mend your ways." PP

I read that the double axle patent expire in 2004. Does that mean there will be lots of choices in producers and prices coming in less than a year - if you like the double axle design. PP

Interesting Read on "Arab" Media PP

I know lots of you cc.comers are going to slam this as being too comercial and so on, BUT especially if you have never been to Minnehaha, this is a really fun event at a super groovy place to boot. Minnehaha has lots of fun bouldering but most of the routes are too big for bouldering. With TRs set up you will be able to climb LOTS of quality routes. The atmosphere is fun and if you aren't into a comp go to support the event and enjoy the TRs. The rock is good. Pretty pine forest and if you spend the night you can check out Dishman or the limestone crags on Sunday! I went because I thought it was better than staying home on a rainy Puget Sound weekend. On the way home I realized it was one of the best climbing trips of the year! Fav routes: Any on Don Quixote Wall esp Oomph! Secondary Face is fun as well. Good mix of easy to hard routes too. PP

Well....the yes votes seem to be running away with it! PP

Below is your post with the two references I was asking about. Both seem to me, and from your last response, to you as well completely nonresponsive to the Saddam/CIA question. Any references you posted after this I have not bothered to checkout. I am not sure why you posted these two here while discussing a sadaam/CIA connection since they appear to have no relation to the assertion you were making. Just spreading the "good news" I guess. PP Have you read the book I cited? No, of course not so rather than dispute the cited facts let's go to poison the well logic. This could go on all day, but rather than me listing sources you could read, why not try and do a little digging? Citation: Zwick, Jim, ed. Anti-Imperialism in the United States, 1898-1935. Or "Instances of Use of United States Forces Abroad, 1798-1993" by Ellen C. Collier of the Library of Congress Congressional Research Service

Jim Quote: “I think your earlier reply was that I lost all credibility - I would encourage you do some reading - but I also noticed that you're not disputing the Saddam/CIA connection(?)” Jim – You lost credibility by referencing a book by someone I equate to a holocaust denier. What do I mean by that? Well simply that the facts you might present here on this board will not be as willingly accepted at face value as they were before your reference. Thanks for encouraging me to do more reading! I will endeavor to do so. As I have said several times I am not disputing a possible Saddam/CIA connection . Seems like it might be possible. I don’t know. I also think that conspiracy theories and a belief in shadowing organizations controlling the world are a new and I might add inferior religion often lead by former sinners who have seen the light. (maybe Blum for instance) Again I ask: Please explain how your two references help to support the CIA/Saddam connection! I notice one covers a period ended 1935. I do not believe the CIA was in existence then and Saddam was a little boy at best. The second list a series of engagement the US was involved in but specifically excludes covert actions. Reviewing the list of engagements I do not see anything in Iraq putting Saddam in power. What am I missing? PP

OW the latter! Jim - Jim Quote: That's not a logical arument, that's putting on blinders. And comparing the assertion that the CIA helped Saddam gain power with some who declare the Holocaust didn't happen is taking the low road. Here's some primary documents and another book. In addition if you go to the library and take a look at Chompsky's "Year 501" it is referenced in detail with primary sources. Also, just do a Google for news articles. It's not hard to find some facts. If you have some good sources that say this is all horseshit then we can talk about that. Otherwise it just looks like you don't want to belive what you hear. First to clarify. I never did this: “compar[ed] the assertion that the CIA helped Saddam gain power with some who declare the Holocaust didn't happen is taking the low road. “ What I did say was that Blum by denying a genocide took place in Kosovo is no different that if he was denying the Holocaust. Second – And for the umpteenth time I never stated a position on the CIAs role in Saddam taking power. Please show me where I did. Third – Please answer my questions about your two references that I made two posts ago. PP

OW - Jim suggested a book by Blum. Blum denies that there was genocide in Kosovo. I pointed that out and claimed that Blum was a kook. Jim suggested I was out to poision the well of logic. I replied that such denials of fact logically lead one to wonder about the credibility of an author's work. The issue at hand was specfically CIA putting Saddam in power. By the way I wasn't disputing this claim. I am however calling Blum a kook and believe that those reading his works should know more about him. The Gulf War is not an issue here. PP By the way I am so dense that I just realized what your intitaials stood for!

Jim Quote: Have you read the book I cited? No, of course not so rather than dispute the cited facts let's go to poison the well logic. Haven’t read it. Don’t plan to. I would ask if in your research you actually check the primary source documents yourself? I find such checking beyond my means. How do you know when you are being lied to? One way is to check out the credibility of the author. Someone who denies such well documented events is no different from someone who claims Dachau was a benign medical facility. You may say I am poisoning the well; I say the water isn’t worth drinking in the first place. Here are some pics for those interested. I chose not to post any of them directly to this thread. Photo Link - Some not pretty. PP NB - Citation: Zwick, Jim, ed. Anti-Imperialism in the United States, 1898-1935. How does this citation relate to Saddam? Just a question. How does yoru second citation support your assertion about the CIA and Saddam? Link An assertion I haven't disputed by the way.

Argh Jim you just lost all credibility. Link Blum's a kook! PP

Well not much of one at least!