Peter_Puget

But not smart enough to understand why this thread is in the North Cascades section instead of a Crag Climbing section. PP

A ledge can be the difference between heaven and hell on a wall. But having spent a bunch of nights in a hammock, I can say that if $$ are scarce and you are only spending a night or two hanging they aren’t such a bad alternative to a ledge. For that matter if your partner has a double ledge you might think about buying one of the Fish economy ledges w/o fly and in the event of bad weather you can join your partner. Carrying two double wide ledges just adds a lot of weight. Expect to be cramped with two in a double. Index has a bunch of fun aid routes but Squamish is the place. Uncle Ben’s use to have a ton of bolts at the Black Sickle to set up a steep hanging bivi. Humpty Dumpty and 10 Years After are good routes. After a few Squamish routes Yosemite or at least expanding flakes won’t be too intimidating. I cannot imagine getting one w/o a fly unless it was a Fish econo ledge. One thing about Fish ledges, at least old ones, is that the tubes are held together with elastic shock cord which if broken would be a nightmare on a wall. PP

Ya I guess Zodiac wasn't such a good example. BTW, I pretty much agree with your comments on this thread. PP

A guy writes a quick TR mentions he pounds some pins and soon it devolves into typical cc.com twistedness. The long and the short of it is that if a route is not dependent on hammered pro then you generally shouldn’t plan on bringing a hammer regardless of the conditions. That these guys placed a few pins doesn’t seem like such a big deal. Some of the replies might have been a bit harsh, but given the history of this BBS they were not by any means over the top. Are these guys lame jerks? I don’t know. Maybe yes. Maybe no. If they went up the route intending to place pins for non-emergency use, I say they were in error AND should have chosen a different route. If they brought pins for last resort use in case they got into trouble and placed them because they were in trouble, I say smart planning. I know if I was climbing the Zodiac I would have a couple pins and a hammer in my haulbag – just in case. Lamebone - did you bring a hammer when you did the Zodiac? Where escape is easy, it is always lame to bring a hammer on clean route that you are aiding whether it uis normally considered a free route or an aid route. Pope, glad to see you haven’t let good taste, logic or a sense of decorum change your style. PP

Thanks for the post. I have climbed a bunch of Ken Edsberg and Jerry Sublette routes over the years. One time bored during a school break I started driving across Nevada to climb Mt Wheeler after reading one of Ken's TRs - didn't make it past Donner Summit tho. I am going to post a short write up on Castle Crags, encourage your friend to add something to the thread if he is so inclined. PP

I thought this is an interesting read here: "Wisdom" from a Mr. Pat Buchanan. Taken from the current issue of American Conservative "We charge that a cabal of polemicists and public officials seek to ensnare our country in a series of wars that are not in America's interests. We charge them with colluding with Israel to ignite those wars and destroy the Oslo Accords. We charge them with deliberately damaging U.S. relations with every state in the Arab world that defies Israel or supports the Palestinian people's right to a homeland of their own. We charge that they have alienated friends and allies all over the Islamic and Western world through their arrogance, hubris, and bellicosity." In light of recent discussions regarding GDP, I though this in an entirely different way is also an interesting read: Economies PP

From ESPN: "The 24-year-old Kobayashi, who weighed 113 pounds before the contest and almost 120 pounds after, bettered his 2001 world-record performance by half a hot dog despite having to fight off the 100-degree heat. He also covered the spread of Internet gamblers, who favored him to win by 20 hot dogs. But in the final seconds, with many of the 20 competitors already satisfied with their effort, Kobayashi's body heaved as his cheeks ballooned with remnants. Since visible regurgitation during competition means a disqualification, many in the crowd cried foul and waited for the title to be given to Eric "Badlands" Booker, who finished second with 26 hot dogs. " PP

Speaking of records did anyone see the Nathan's Hot Dog Eating Contest on the Food Network last weekend? Now that was some amazing television. Since the late 90's the Japanese have dominated this "sport" and the winner made a new world's record eating 50 hot dogs in 12 minutes using "double Japanesing" technique. (that is 1 dog w/ bun every 14.4 seconds.) This skinny, honed athlete (think sport climber body) blew away the fat lazy Americans. PP

We can influence local/statewide decisions much more than federal policies. By the way shouldnt the news not have an agenda?

While "user fees" as such are interesting I would suggest a slightly different yet complimentary story. Learn about the Park Renewal and Stewardship Accounts for the Washington State Parks. The legislation establishing the PRSA states: "The legislature clearly intends that such revenues shall complement, not supplant, future general fund support." The most cursory of reviews will make evident how this intent has been ignored. Next read about the creation of the Enterprise Services Program. Now I would ask the question: If the parks Department is essentially moving towards a becoming a self funding entity why is the State in the Parks Business at all? Related questions: How does self-funding change the decisions that the Parks Dept makes? Isn't self funding merely a tax by another means? PP

Well crappy weekend coming up and I thought I'd try again to find that ElDorado of the NW - Butler Bluff! Anyone with helpful beta for finding it? PP

Be a fly! PP

Alpine Tom hit the nail on the head!

Rankings of any sort are destined to be ridiculed, debated over and appealed to as a matter of course. Over time they slowly change and perhaps become meaningless. Think of the term third class. If I said that route was three pitches and then third class to the top you'd rightly conclude that the difficulty of the 3rd class section was much less than if Johnny Bachar said the same thing. Take the Grade V rating on Steck-Salathe. Formerly a multi-day climb; now who really spends a night on it? Not many. Think of Space Shot in Zion. How many parties have run out of daylight on the Davis-Holland route? Some California climbers whose names many would recognize had a forced bivi on top Lovin' Arms! These are all rock routes which have far less variability in conditions than any winter alpine route in the Cascades and yet there appears to be much imprecision in what the rating/grade really means. Yvon Chouinard noted that in a couple of years of rock climbing at a specific location a person could become truly an "experienced" rock climber but that due to the high variability of winter conditions measured not only over days, weeks, and months but also years, that it was near impossible to become truly experienced in winter climbing over a small number of seasons. To expect much in the way of precision in winter alpine grades is folly. PP

After reading that thread in the training forum I am inspired to start a rival Pub Club where we combine drinking and training Magnus ver Magnussen style!

JayB - I have it on good authority that some of the climbers spouting in this thread have climbed routes rated higher than the average gym rat can count! PP

Let's all be friends. After a long standing ovation at Penn State Univ. Fred Rogers said: "Thank you for your warm welcome. When we bow to one another, we bow to the eternal in all of us." Would mutual respect be so bad? PP

JayB - Why does that pain you? Because it suggests he climbs hard? Or because the gym attracts such a large number of begininer climbers that crowd the place up while they are having a great time? Without regard to your pain, free soloing a route harder than the average gym rat can climb is hardly a brag worthy feat. PP

I am not trading insults. I am presenting my own opinions in a cogent and logical fashion. This didn't start out as an ethical discussion. Part of my problem with this whole gym/ sport thing is that some of us don't particularly like our version of climbing being thrown in with the Trad. It ain't all the same. We do what we do because we like it and in fact wethink it's better. (Gym climbing I believe, is morally superior to all other forms of climbing because it does not dergade the environment. Sport climbing is much less encumbered by equipment and technology than trad climbing thus it is a purer form of climbing. Bouldering of course rules the universe) In the words of a classic bumper-sticker: "Sore - Loserman" So go self-deprecate yourself (or on your own sleeping bag) if you like. You wanna talk ethics....start another discussion.

I stay out of the boulder pits. I am not to proud to admit the gravel in there scares me! PP

RuMR - Pope is constantly proclaiming his talents and achievements. One indication that one is on its way is a comment such as " I'm not much into boasting." The fun thing is he is at the ready to spray about his achievements. Ring a bell and he'll start salivating. Check out some old threads. You'll see that at even the slightest provocation he'll boast. PP

Dwayner, I took your awful advice about the Mickeys and now I am so built up that I am reduced to cruising gyms for youthful ropeguns like some aging pederast! Please just say no to Mickeys! PP

Dwayner - Teach us about the moral/ethical/spiritual considerations/repercussions of using your tremendous intellect to consistently ridicule and demean others residing on a lower intellectual/spiritual/moral level? Build us up don't tear us down! PP

Not sure but I'd like to meet a Sweet Tart.

You're lucky politeness is the mark of a classy ropegun! LOL I sound like Pat Ament! PP