Stefan

This is what one of the questions I am trying to get at. A bolt is next to the crack. Maybe you can place pro in that crack, but somebody else doesn't believe in their abilities to trust the pro, so they probably placed the bolt. This happens quite frequently for where the bolts are placed (even though it is not kosher). This is why I question all bolting.....but then again, I am no big wall climber, I have never slept on a portaledge, and I will never sleep on a portaledge.

They never close the gates at the Nisqually entrance. If you go in before the guard is there (7:00am?) and after the guard leaves (5:00pm?) you will not have to pay an entrance fee. They close the gates at Longmire in the winter at 4:00 for uphill traffic. They open them dependant on weather.

Slesse - the easy route

I see this as the most general rule--not placing a bolt next to a fine protectable place. Now I ask, if you can TOPROPE something, should you bolt a route? I thought rope was only for safety reasons, and therefore bolts are there for safety reasons. Why would someone NOT toprope a climb if that is the safest way to climb a potential TOPROPABLE climb? Why can't you toprope "To Bolt, Or Not to Bolt" and still do the same moves and be safer?

Disagree. On some routes, ability does not define safety. Take some of the new mixed ice routes in the rockies for example. And lets not forget that the only reason ANY of us can climb above 5.11 is because we were able to train in safe situations. My point is thus. You can climb 5.11 becuase you can, maybe from training, and dedication. Would you bolt a 5.6 route? Probably not. But you probably would bolt a 5.10 route either becuase of your safety on the route or you are just lazy in placing pro. You don't feel as confident with 5.10 as you do with 5.6. (I cannot climb above 5.8) Now let's say joey (fictional man) can do 5.14 all the time. He is super confident in his abilities. 5.11 is a piece of cake to him and so why should he bolt a route? In other words, joey is climbing within his abilities. I have seen bolts on routes that are 5.4 . Heck I have seen bolts placed perfectly next to fine cracks. Should those bolts be there? At what grade do bolts become acceptable? More importantly, why do bolts become more acceptable at higher grades? More risk? Or is it becuase the person is climbing out of their "comfort zone"? Should the person placing the bolts be allowed to bolt becuase a route is out of their "comfort zone" wilst another person can just climb the route being completely "in the zone" without using bolts? Which begs to question. Why do I even use a rope?

If everyone climbed 5.14 with relative ease then bolting would not be an issue. People only bolt becuase they can't climb the grades safely -- bolting is not for development, it's becuase some climbers can't climb the grades safely or confidently.

It's too bad people get banned. Then again, if they never used vulgarity, I can't see why they should be banned. Vulgarity directed at another person is a very "teenagerish" action in my opinion.

So the government says it has somebody with ties to terrorism, yet they send him away and not jail him under the Patriot Act? There were people jailed in Guatanomo Bay with less suspicion than this dude. And when Cat Stevens arrives in London he will not be taken into custody and let to walk the streets free as he should be. Why will the authorities in London/UK accept him? Something's fishy about this story. The whole story aint there......

Hire me. I will make sure the money is spent in the right places for only trails. I will never build a new outhouse. I will never build picknick tables. I will never post anything at a trailhead. I will never make any signs for trailheads. For current outhouses I will never put in toilet paper. I will never spend money on any type of road service or repair. I will never spend any money on trailhead security. I will never spend any money on enforcing a person who has or does not have a trailhead pass. All money will go strictly for trails. I will not build new trails. I will hire horsepackers and the WTA to clear the trails. I will tell those horsepackers and WTA to use chainsaws and I will look the other way in regards to "non-motorized" designation. Hire me.

One positive thing about this legislation. There will be less people out on the trails....which means more of a wilderness experience.

I was north of Winthrop this past weekend. They were still limegreen. In the area I was at, it would take about another 2 weeks in my opinion.

Yep. Thank God for the timber companies too! They are my best aid partners in getting to climbs! Otherwise i'd be schwackin way too much!

Merv baby! You never quoted me! You taught me this one! I thought this would be at the top of your list! "Man was not designed to touch every fragment of this earth." (IOW, bolting allows humans to touch certain areas of this earth they could not do under their own abilities.)

Man was not designed to touch every fragment of this earth.

Good point on your wilderness interpretation. But in those areas, did people use motorized drills? I am not a big wall climber so I do not know.... I guess it is more of a style. Like expedition versus alpine. Sport versus trad. Motorized drilling versus cranking it. People are all over the French Alps. Do they allow bolting there? And if so, what does the climbing community believe about motorized drilling? What's ever happening there (in Europe) is the future here in Washington state with the ever encroaching population....

How can you sue after you die? I want to know.

I am surprised by the chainsaw thing too. Ask the WTA here in Washington. When they do a work trail party, everybody brings these big band saws--sometimes they look to be 6 feet in length. I have asked why bandsaws. Same answer everytime is: "It's in a Wilderness Area and we cannot use chainsaws". Ask Marylou. She is more up on it than I am. However, I will say I believe some backcountry horsemen will use a chainsaw...if nobody knows about it.

A trail is also a fixed installation....but then again, leave a trail alone without usage and maintenance and within 20 years it will be gone (except Kendall Catwalk section).... Trailhead signs on trees are fixed installations. Get this about motorized usage. Trail maintenance people are NOT allowed to use chainsaws.....but they can use explosives for trail maintenance! Explosives have been used within the past two years by maintenance folk for the Middle Fork Snoqualmie trail to make the trail usable for horses!

Maybe becuase they have not been written in a guidebook like the Wilman's Spires. I have been up both Crested Buttes. North Crested was sporty when I did it in May of one year. I would have liked to have seen the original register but it was under 10 feet of snow.....

Do you have pictures of Ex Spire?

I would like to know where this route is exactly. I am a person who gets little booty. I need some more. Please be very specific as I do not want to walk all over to find it. Thanks!

I vote everything is up for grabs. Even the bolts. Bolts are for people who are afraid of falling. Trust me. Falling is like parachuting. Do it once, and you're hooked.

The main reason I do car to car--I have to work. Not enough days to play. Work is a big issue!

thanks for the report!

I have started using a mountain bike more than I used to for these logging roads. I believe someday I will be using a motorbike....