Stefan

DFA, When you create a sport route, do you traditionally top rope it to set up the bolts and look for how you want to the route to go?

I would like to climb 5.14......but I don't want to spend the time to get there....hence I know I will never get there....

I also should not climb a 5.10 route if I can't climb 5.9 I gotta earn to be a 5.10 climber and above, that means being confident on 5.9. and sequential grades. again your logic is totally flawed... Here's an example...let's say that you want to learn to climb steep, overhanging and roofed rock...and i'm not talking about the "roofed" routes we have in the PNW, but sustained more than 2 body length roof climbing that you can't just reach over and mantle through....well, i've got news for you, the routes usually don't start until about 5.11...so you can stay in 5.9suck land forever and totally dial that down, then you can go and dial down 5.10 tech face and you're still gonna get shut down completely on steep rock...simply cuz you don't know what the fuck you are doing... We can extrapolate that to something like, oh i don't know, a nice slick flaring offwidth...guess what, you can cheat your ass off on most 5.9 and under offwidth and not learn how to climb them...the reason why is because an offwidth at 5.9 and under generally has enough crap inside it and on the neighboring face that you really aren't climbing it in true "offwidth" style...so you're gonna get shut down and flail and hangdog or you are never going to progress...sorry this is the real world and if you don't train specifically, it aint gonna happen... you think 5.14 climbers didn't bump their grades by working their asses off, training, hangdogging routes, working stuff into the ground AND onsighting all at the same time? Guess again... True. I can see overhangs as a serious problem to the toproping issue and trying to avoid bolting. But you can still try to toprope if you can do "dial" in the route. But usually if you are "hangdogging" to "dial" into the grade, aren't you usually less than 50 meters off the ground? What grade is "To Bolt or Not to Bolt?" Is this overhanging? (I seriously have no idea.)

if you can't climb 5.9 then you CAN'T climb 5.10! What does mode of protection have to do with it? If you have to bolt the shit out of it and hang doggggg up the thing... That is the issue... Sorry, I don't hang dogggg. Why? I don't have the time to improve. You could become more proficient at still toproping a 5.12 climb, and hang dogggg to do the moves over and over to improve.

if you can't climb 5.9 then you CAN'T climb 5.10! What does mode of protection have to do with it? Ummm. Forgive me for speaking generally but traditionally, the harder routes requires more competence to place protection becuase those routes have less places to place pro. Mode of protection means those more competent can place pro in the more difficult places. Those less competent rely on bolts.

Are you trying to be incendiary, or do you have a point? Of course I have a point. The rope is only for safety reasons. AND just becuase you are not leading does not mean you are not climbing.

I agree with you completely. I feel more focused leading rather than toproping. I just don't agree with the bolting thing if you could toprope a route. I guess if you want a real rush to focus, just make sure there is a lot of slack behind you on a topropable climb. Why not place pro instead of toproping--I have no problem with that.

Please explain what his means. Cheers If I can not place a piece of protection that I feel I can live with and/or I could fall on, then I should not be there. I do not rely on anybody else but what is naturally given to me on the route. But I still rely on the mechanics of a Camalot! I also should not climb a 5.10 route if I can't climb 5.9 I gotta earn to be a 5.10 climber and above, that means being confident on 5.9. and sequential grades.

Why do you use a rope then? Rope is only there IF you should fall-it is a safety mechanism. If rope is only a safety mechanism then it should not matter if it is above you or below you. Climbing is making the moves on rock. Even if I follow someone who leads, I still make the climb.

Peter Croft may know one thing more than me. About toproping: I said, "If" a route was topropable, why bolt it? Obviously you can not toprope Exfoliation Dome, so bolting may be okay. I make the the personal premises to myself that says, "If I cannot climb it under my own abilities, then I should not climb it." I think bolting something that could be toproped is ridiculous, I think bolting next to fine pro placement is ridiculous. However, I am more lenient on places where there is multipitching going on--it is out of sight. The locations of these bolts are way out of sight and do nothing to interfere with "wilderness" feel for the standard user.

This is what one of the questions I am trying to get at. A bolt is next to the crack. Maybe you can place pro in that crack, but somebody else doesn't believe in their abilities to trust the pro, so they probably placed the bolt. This happens quite frequently for where the bolts are placed (even though it is not kosher). This is why I question all bolting.....but then again, I am no big wall climber, I have never slept on a portaledge, and I will never sleep on a portaledge.

They never close the gates at the Nisqually entrance. If you go in before the guard is there (7:00am?) and after the guard leaves (5:00pm?) you will not have to pay an entrance fee. They close the gates at Longmire in the winter at 4:00 for uphill traffic. They open them dependant on weather.

Slesse - the easy route

I see this as the most general rule--not placing a bolt next to a fine protectable place. Now I ask, if you can TOPROPE something, should you bolt a route? I thought rope was only for safety reasons, and therefore bolts are there for safety reasons. Why would someone NOT toprope a climb if that is the safest way to climb a potential TOPROPABLE climb? Why can't you toprope "To Bolt, Or Not to Bolt" and still do the same moves and be safer?

Disagree. On some routes, ability does not define safety. Take some of the new mixed ice routes in the rockies for example. And lets not forget that the only reason ANY of us can climb above 5.11 is because we were able to train in safe situations. My point is thus. You can climb 5.11 becuase you can, maybe from training, and dedication. Would you bolt a 5.6 route? Probably not. But you probably would bolt a 5.10 route either becuase of your safety on the route or you are just lazy in placing pro. You don't feel as confident with 5.10 as you do with 5.6. (I cannot climb above 5.8) Now let's say joey (fictional man) can do 5.14 all the time. He is super confident in his abilities. 5.11 is a piece of cake to him and so why should he bolt a route? In other words, joey is climbing within his abilities. I have seen bolts on routes that are 5.4 . Heck I have seen bolts placed perfectly next to fine cracks. Should those bolts be there? At what grade do bolts become acceptable? More importantly, why do bolts become more acceptable at higher grades? More risk? Or is it becuase the person is climbing out of their "comfort zone"? Should the person placing the bolts be allowed to bolt becuase a route is out of their "comfort zone" wilst another person can just climb the route being completely "in the zone" without using bolts? Which begs to question. Why do I even use a rope?

If everyone climbed 5.14 with relative ease then bolting would not be an issue. People only bolt becuase they can't climb the grades safely -- bolting is not for development, it's becuase some climbers can't climb the grades safely or confidently.

It's too bad people get banned. Then again, if they never used vulgarity, I can't see why they should be banned. Vulgarity directed at another person is a very "teenagerish" action in my opinion.

So the government says it has somebody with ties to terrorism, yet they send him away and not jail him under the Patriot Act? There were people jailed in Guatanomo Bay with less suspicion than this dude. And when Cat Stevens arrives in London he will not be taken into custody and let to walk the streets free as he should be. Why will the authorities in London/UK accept him? Something's fishy about this story. The whole story aint there......

Hire me. I will make sure the money is spent in the right places for only trails. I will never build a new outhouse. I will never build picknick tables. I will never post anything at a trailhead. I will never make any signs for trailheads. For current outhouses I will never put in toilet paper. I will never spend money on any type of road service or repair. I will never spend any money on trailhead security. I will never spend any money on enforcing a person who has or does not have a trailhead pass. All money will go strictly for trails. I will not build new trails. I will hire horsepackers and the WTA to clear the trails. I will tell those horsepackers and WTA to use chainsaws and I will look the other way in regards to "non-motorized" designation. Hire me.

One positive thing about this legislation. There will be less people out on the trails....which means more of a wilderness experience.

I was north of Winthrop this past weekend. They were still limegreen. In the area I was at, it would take about another 2 weeks in my opinion.

Yep. Thank God for the timber companies too! They are my best aid partners in getting to climbs! Otherwise i'd be schwackin way too much!

Merv baby! You never quoted me! You taught me this one! I thought this would be at the top of your list! "Man was not designed to touch every fragment of this earth." (IOW, bolting allows humans to touch certain areas of this earth they could not do under their own abilities.)

Man was not designed to touch every fragment of this earth.

Good point on your wilderness interpretation. But in those areas, did people use motorized drills? I am not a big wall climber so I do not know.... I guess it is more of a style. Like expedition versus alpine. Sport versus trad. Motorized drilling versus cranking it. People are all over the French Alps. Do they allow bolting there? And if so, what does the climbing community believe about motorized drilling? What's ever happening there (in Europe) is the future here in Washington state with the ever encroaching population....