mattp

As a matter of fact, I have. For a tarp I generally carry something a little more upscale but not really functionally much different than a piece of tyvek (and I have in fact carried Tyvek). For ski-camping below timberline it is vastly preferable to a tent. As to pants? I do in fact find salvation army dress slacks or just plain jeans more practical for rock climbing than softshell pants that cost 10x - no 25x - as much. Let's get back to science.

Yup. And I kind of agree, too. There is a lot of overpriced crap sold to willing buyers based on marketing. A piece of Tyvek with pebbles in the corners and strings tied around the pebbles is in certain applications better than the $600 North Face tent, and the Salvation Army pants can perform just as well for rock climbing as the Metolious threads (I'll stop short of buying my climbing ropes at Home Depot, though). But we're talking science here. Clearly it must mean that all atmospheric and climatological scientists are wrong if somebody e-mailed somebody else about dumping data from one particular collection.

Dick, I think you are right: there are a whole lot of reasons why it was wrong to bring the old bolting bait and bash into this discussion but the fact is that somebody else actually INVITED Pope and Dwayner to this thread and several others have been unable to do anything but argue tit for tat. The mods for this forum could moderate the discussion in a different fashion but, too, you could ignore those guys and talk about something beside them. I've tried to steer this conversation toward a more reflective discussion of questions like where do we stand as a group at this point in history and what impact on our sport is brought about by bolt wars and etc. Matt

To the extent that there is any chance for meaningful discussion, let's retain the original subject headline.

Bill, I agree that we've had some of this "discussion" many times before, with the same result. I've been trying to bring other aspects of the issue into this thread. Matt

Here's a Klenke photo:

Bill: I have no clue what you mean here. But I suspect my early-on post about how I wish people could someday engage in real discussion, and that I think a discussion where everybody actually takes personal ownership of their positions (like maybe posting in their real name) would be refreshing, might be appropriate. Are you suggesting that somebody here is a clown? Are you suggesting the whole idea of discussion is a joke? I don't know. I'm interested in some discussion, and this might include whether bolts are "good" or "bad" as some are discussing here or the questions I asked, like where do we think the general "debate" of sport v. trad stands, or "don't you think that bolt wars are a bad idea?" Perhaps you think we are all a bunch of clowns. I cannot argue against that particular point. For sure, cc.com is at times nothing more than a circus. Matt

Nice one. Big Four is Big Fun, eh? I don't know whether it'd be preferable or not but I think one can also avoid the lower North Face by making an end-run around the lower cliffs into steep and decidedly unfriendly woods right of the lower cliff bands - though I've only been down this way and not up. A short bit of nastiness should lead the climber into an open bowl below the Big Four - Hall Peak saddle, and a rising traverse left would put you back on the upper North Face. Where's that shot from across the way?

That's a good point, bird dog. Particularly at or even below the top of some of the popular crack climbs at Vantage, the piles of loose rock are a nightmare and present a serious hazard. A careful belayer has a difficult time not beaning their follower and a pre-set top rope is even more dangerous quite often. Also, Fish and Wildlife has asked climbers to consolidate trails and encourage limited traffic on top out of concern for impact. I don't know if they specifically requested it but having good rappel stations at the top of the routes does well to address these concerns. Once, several years ago, I was told that a local anti-bolt activist climber was seen removing trail signs placed by an Access Fund work party that were addressing this issue of trying to control/direct traffic up on top. I was also told that this person had a beef with the Access Fund or the notion of climbers organizing out at Vantage because he equated that with sport climbing. If that is true, it is an example of how the politics of these situations can work to our disadvantage. Whether you think bolts are good or bad, the heated nature of this issue has hampered climbers' ability to work with land managers and climbing areas have even been threatened by bolt wars.

Jefe may be right. We saw front cover articles about the great ethics debate in climbing magazines just a couple of years ago but the fact is that when I talk to climbers at climbing areas, even at "so called" trad areas like Index or the 'Gunks, I don't find any climbers who say that sport-climbing-is-the-root-of-all-evil. None. I meet plenty of people who laugh at "sporto's" or who have no interest in going to name-the-local-sport-crag and I fully understand that point of view but most climbers today don't seem to share Pope and Dwayner's venom. It does not answer the ultimate question of "right or wrong" but what do you guys think: how many climbers today are staunchly and avowedly "anti-sport" in the sense that we are talking about here: that "sport climbing is evil?" What is the status of "the debate?"

Cynnicism aside, I for one am happy to see someone like Alan come forward and say "hey: this is me you're talking about." I know it is against cc.com tradition but Alan here seems to suggest there could be some value in attempting an actual discussion and I for one think that it would help these discussions if more of the participants were to post under their real name and be prepared to give and take. I'm not trying to stir the pot with Pope or anybody else around here and, no, I'm not suggesting that anybody police this or any other particular discussion. However, it'd be refreshing if we saw some folks attempt thoughtful discussion more often. Thanks, Alan, for taking the time to post. You make a good point that there is nothing inherent in sport climbing that attacks or degrades trad. Clearly, there can be conflict and it gets highlighted where trad climbers take a jihad approach toward bolt wars or sport climbers set about retrobolting classic crack climbs but all the different approaches toward climbing are mostly complimentary and offer greater deapth to the sport, not less, in my view. That was the conclusion I reached in an article I wrote on this topic a few years back: Rock climbing ethics: an historical perspective

"High Camp" rocks. I haven't been there for 10 years but I worked and skied there for several years and it is sweet terrain for touring. Ski-mountaineering opportunities and truly alpine opportunities are limited but for backcountry skiing it is tops times three and it is pretty cool to ride a snowcat to 5,000 feet and stay in heated cabins. There is also some reliable ice climbing about 40 minutes' ski from camp.

I don't know if this is a common practice (I've never heard of it) but one time when I wanted to control speed on a descent because we feared a possible crevasse fall and wanted to keep the ropes relatively stable between us I put the skins on backwards. Duct tape came in handy because the skins were not set up to install that way. We had an easy time skiing (actually walking) down a glacier, though, although it felt weird to creep down steep rolls with everything tilted the wrong way. If we are talking abut controlling sleds on decent, controlling the skier is also important. This may be a useful technique.

I have at least a large crate of gear for such an endeavor. Seriously. Old 'biners are perfectly fine though some may have sticky gates, and old cams, while not worth anything on any kind of "retail" market, would probably hold a fall. I have some borderline antique ice screws as well.

I just checked and waynessite.com is available for three years for something like $60.00 and you can get it hosted for not too much either. Then you'd have a consistent e-mail address (for example, wayne@waynessite.com) for as long as we use the current URL format, and if providers come and go you don't care. DO IT!

!! it's been, what? 9 years of cc.com? !! The images I harvested from the site to show at random made us look pretty good, huh? You CAN meet people, share beta, waste your time, and raise money for stuff like purchasing Index on cc.com. Great night, Jon and Porter. Good schwag, beer, slides, and more money for Index. A good time was had by all.

That and celebrating 9 years of cc.com, viewing some fantastic slides, and having a couple of beers. The sausage they serve isn't bad, either. (Hint: get the ragin' cajun.)

Fred was "blissfully" aware of the show when I talked to him. I think his main problem at the O'Neil event was that he has a hard time hearing when there is a lot of background noise and, like most people who are hard of hearing, is uncomfortable saying "What? I can't hear you." Fred will get himself there, I suspect.

I don't think they had teeth on the ice axes made 109 years ago. I could be wrong. Without any real specific knowledge of ice axe development my general "take" is that it is more like mid-century.

That little flood problem is serious. If you try to drive through it and your fan hits the water, you're likely to stall out in the middle of the lake. Meanwhile, the water carries all the silt away and we are left with a cobblestone roadway. It is too bad the Forest Service doesn't have a budget for this part of the raod: we need a whole gang of Nepali laborers or a backhoe.

Thanks. I certainly have one for him too.

Climbing, Mountain, Couloir and maybe some Off Belay (probably something else in there too). 1985 - 1995 or so. Roughly 90 magazines. There are some classics here, for sure.

What happened Val? Still interested?

I have seven 9mm ropes and an 11mm rope that gotta go. These ropes have been retired for years and are just gathering dust in my basement. Come and get them or I"ll take 'em to good will.

Cool, Mark. I think I can make it. That road needs some lovin.