goatboy

Hey folks, Has anyone approached Mt Triumph (via the standard Thornton Lakes way) lately? I'm curious about the state of the glacier crossing there. Thanks in advance for any responses or beta. Off Belay, Steve

Regarding aviation wreckage, I seem to remember reading about a helicopter crash up there this spring. Must have been heli-ski folks. Anyone else remember that? As for burgundy vs. silverstar creek, I gotta vote for burgundy. It's steep and long (over 3500 vertical as I recall) but so direct and not as bad as it sounds -- on good trail the whole way, once you cross early winter creek --- and pretty clear where you're going the whole time. Takes about 2.5 - 3 hours to the col from the car. Silverstar creek is more of a wander, without much trail to follow, and potential to run into obstacles like slabs and creeks and other things which slow you down. I'd rather take the steep and direct than the wandering anyday. Classic parallel example: Tried to approach eldorado via sibley ridge once, hoping to avoid the steep eldo creek approach. Mistake. Got lost and wandered too much on ridge, didn't climb peak as planned. Next time, I'll opt for steep and direct. Burgundy Col is the way to go, for me. Steve

I heard from some firefighting folks that the icicle ridge fire was actually quite big -- is that right? I didn't know there was a lot left to burn up there that hadn't already burned, shows you what I know. Anyway, I wonder if it's causing any access issues or damage to climbing areas. Any updates from local folks is appreciated. Thanks. I'm planning on calling leavenworth ranger station but it's too early in the morning right now...rangers must be sleeping still! Steve

The Liberty Bell massif is very climb-able right now. In the past week, I've been on Liberty Bell twice (beckey route and rapple grapple) and both routes are in great shape, no water on either route. There is snow in the approach gully, but it seems to be melting very fast. South Early Winter Spire still has patches of snow on the south arete (as of a few days ago) but it too is melting fast. The SW Couloir is completely melted out, though I ran into two british lads who trudged up the thing a few days ago (??????) The north face of concord was still quite wet, with snowmelt running down it in large quantities. The tunnel route on concord still has a large snowpatch at the cave entrance. Very large cornice collapses and even some climax avalanches have taken place over the last few weeks around wash. pass. Blue Lake Peak has an immense cornice on it which seems destined to collapse sooner rather than later. In short, things are very climbable right now though it is recommended to be very alert to volatile snow conditions pertaining to avalanches and cornices right now. I haven't been to burgundy but I imagine the north face is still wet and may not be in great shape yet this season. Burgundy Col itself is melted out and shows bare talus. Hope this info is helpful to you and others. Steve

You're right, mountain guy. The couloir is now a big funnel of dirt and snowmelt and patchy snow, no ice to be seen. Ugly. To be avoided for sure. We climbed the south arete, and it's in good shape with no ice in the chimney, and only a few patches of snow along the way. By the way, sometime (last year I think) someone bolted the 20-foot long knife edge section near the top of the south arete route. By "bolted," I mean that they placed a single bolt on the north side of the knife-edge, about halfway across. This allows folks to lead this exposed knife edge and protect it -- but I wonder who did that, and if that bolt is really necessary? The climb is very frequently used by guide services or classes(such as AAI and the Mountaineers) and I wonder if those organizations were involved in bolting that arete. Steve

Hey folks, Has anyone been in the southwest couloir of South Early Winter Spire lately? I'm hoping to climb it on Wednesday and am curious if there's any ice -- also, how melted out the chockstone is (in other words, will there be some rock climbing to skirt the chockstone?) I'm planning (right now) on taking a picket, some screws, some rock gear, and an ice tool plus an ice ax. If anyone has any recent reports that may dissuade me from taking all that stuff, please let me know. (I soloed the thing a few winters back, when the chockstone was completely buried under massive record-breaking snowfall. I expect a very different climb this week, but am not sure what I'll find there.) Appreciate any news or advice anyone may have. Thanks much! Steve

I'm curious if Orbit is wet at all this time of year. I've heard that it can be wet in early season. Also, has anyone out there done the 5.7 slab route on Snow Creek Wall -- memory tells me that it's called the White Slabs, but I am known to forget things. Thanks very much for any info that you care to share. Steve

Yeah, Forrest!

[This message has been edited by goatboy (edited 05-08-2001).]

I disagree with the "you lose" attitude being expressed here. There's a difference, in my book, between abandoning gear on a route versus leaving it on a rock in the parking lot. Cleaning gear that another party abandoned is great. Taking ropes out of the parking lot is lame. Anyway, everyone likes finding booty, but who wants a used rope whose history you do not even know? I hope you get your friend's rope back, Nwdiver, and I hope that this site remains a place where folks can post lost and found messages without getting unhelpful responses.

(I'm trying to edit an earlier post -- so I hope this doesn't just repeat the earlier post) A point of clarification: fredrogers mentioned that he has seen Outward Bound groups in the Icicle. I work for outward bound, and we do not take groups to leavenworth, nor have we in recent memory. I know that NOLS does use icicle creek for their rock camps, though my guess is that they try to do so in a respectful way. Many people confuse NOLS with Outward Bound, but they are separate schools. Back to the point of this thread: Seeking instruction is good. Doing so in a way which creates large impact and potential conflict with land-owners in an already-touchy area is questionable judgment, because in addition to being instructed technically, I believe novice climbers need to be instructed as to the politics and responsibilities associated with being a climber. That includes being aware of the environment, of other people, and of the politics of climbing in protected areas or private property. Steve [This message has been edited by goatboy (edited 05-07-2001).] [This message has been edited by goatboy (edited 05-07-2001).]

There were very large parties in the Icicle over this past weekend (May 5-6). I'm guessing that it was the Mountaineers? I saw a helicopter fly very low through icicle creek canyon towards leavenworth, coming from icicle buttress direction. Was that related to the accident? I notice that the Mountaineers always have accident reports in the annual journal, Accidents in NA Mountaineering, but is that because they are accident-prone, or because they have so many people out that they're statistically bound to have accidents, or because they have under-prepared people leading the inexperienced, or because they are organized enough to actually submit accident reports (while many groups do not do so)? In any case, I hope the injured party is recovering. Any update on that? Steve

Maybe this thread will degenerate into people insulting people whom they don't even know like many do -- after all, it's just words and characters on a two-dimensional screen, right? Or, maybe some more constructive or communicative dialogue can actually take place, ideas exchanged by the people behind the characters on the screen. My hope is for the latter. Here are my ideas, for those who care to hear them. People "getting in touch with nature" is one thing -- though it may be illegal in this american society, it may or may not be morally acceptable, depending on one's value system. That's a personal choice, and people have as much right to make personal moral choices as others have rights to choose otherwise. HOWEVER, choosing to engage in narcotics (or drinking, or whatever) WHILE climbing means that you are making choices that affect (and reflect upon) all climbers. When pothead johnny has a climbing accident while on dope, there are two possible scenarios that I see: 1) the rescue team realizes he was on drugs while climbing, and that reflects badly on all climbers; 2) the rescue team fails to realize that he was on drugs, but had an accident anyway. Who knows if the accident may have been influenced by drug use, but the accident does influence public perception of climbing and climbers, possibly leading to more governmental regulations and other sanctions. There will always be accidents, and I'm not attributing that fact to drug use -- however, I am stating emphatically that when you choose to use drugs and climb, you're not just affecting yourself. You may be affecting the public's perception of climbers and climbing, and you may also be affecting the safety of the rescue parties who come to your aid. On a personal note, I climb to get a high that lasts, and feel more "in touch with nature" when my perception is not one step removed from its natural state. I KNOW that lots of people smoke dope or drink and climb -- and that there is a long tradition of beer drinking as part of the climbing culture -- I myself have been known to singlehandedly keep Gustav's in business during the summer months -- but my point is that it's important to make a critical distinction between drinking/drug use AFTER climbing versus DURING climbing, for the reasons I stated above. My hope is that those who disagree with my view will at least attempt to respect my right to my view, and attempt to understand my view, before calling me an idiot or other names. It means a lot more to me to be called an idiot AFTER you understand me (wink, wink). In light of this conversation, should we all Climb High, or hang out in the Lowe Alpine? I wonder what views others have, and if people think it's important to make conscious choices about whether or not one is going to use drugs while climbing. Thanks for any insight others can offer. Steve Smith (my real name!)

Phil, I had NO idea you had x rays of the skeletons inside my closet! Thanks for the image -- it does look like a good route, which was (unfortunately for us) in good shape the day we mis-approached. Oh well, another lesson from the cascades..... and another route to dream about and hopefully go do some day. I got some good days in up around Banff this winter, so I made up for the eldorado bungle I reckon.

Yeah forrest, Good Point. The scenery of the sibley ridge approach was STELLAR, and I got some great photos and memories, and great looks at Dorado Needle, Early Morning Spire, etc. HOWEVER, I think I could have gotten those great views without the pack full of useless technical gear, ropes, rack, etc -- I think I WOULD go do the sibley approach again, now that I think about it -- but with a daypack on a dayhike, with only a camera and a block of cheese for company, and photos my only objective. Anyway, I hope to try the NW Couloir another fall -- though I question if this year's snowpack will create favorable conditions come fall? I understand that (like many routes) conditions dictate everything for this NW Couloir route. I also understand that fall is a long way off and it's anyone's guess at this point. It's just a skeleton in my closet and I've got to go get back up there! S

Yeah. Was that on the 7th of October? If so, that was me and Tony. We were bivied in the regular parking lot on friday night, then drove up sibley creek to our doom the next morning. Were y'all the folks who had been seeking ice up in BC -- two 20-30 year olds -- or another party? Steve

Thanks for the route update Jerry. I assume you're describing SIBLEY Ridge (not Sibling Ridge) I ATTEMPTED to approach Eldo Glacier via Sibley Ridge last October and I will never go that way again. Either the route descriptions I had were too vague or I am too dumb -- maybe both -- but we ended up dropping down the wrong gully into the wrong basin and ended up cliffed out on a subsidiary ridge looking across at the Triad and the clear snow slope giving access to the Eldo Glacier -- but after hours of steep talus and scree traversing to get to the wrong place, and as it was already 3 PM, with dark coming about 5 PM, we decided to bivy where we were and bag the climb. As it turned out, there was a rock bivy already built for us on the only flat spot on the ridge -- apparently, some others had followed the same route description we had. I'm not blaming route descriptions, WE blew it -- but I am saying that even though I now know what we did wrong, and could probably go back and do better, the approach itself, as Nelson's book says, "follows a long sinewy ridge, leaving you far from the mountain." And the approach itself is FAR from straightforward, lots and lots of steep loose rock or steep grass (which would have taken crampons well), exposed in places, and easy to screw up the routefinding. We ended up eating jiffy pop popcorn and enjoying a great sunset -- no real climbing to speak of, though. And we woke the next morning to freezing rain at 5 am. I have never been up there this early in the year, and maybe the snowy conditions Jerry described would have sped up a lot of the loose, nervewracking traversing -- I don't know, but I highly doubt I'll go back the Sibley way again. I think I would just blitz straight up the steep but straightforward eldo creek approach. Has anyone had a different or slightly recommended experience going in to eldo via sibley ridge? If so, please dilute my cynical and negative report with some good tales of your own. Steve

Curious: Where is the original topo to which you refer? Sounds like you can do the whole route with just draws? Weird. Steve

There have been lots of incidents on Denali in which rope teams venture onto steep icy terrain without placing intermediate pro, and a fall results in the entire team being unable to arrest, and going down. Another (better) scenario is that in which one has a rope team on low angle snow slopes with no pro, but has faith in the rope team's ability to self-arrest (e.g. climbing with less experienced folks for whom soloing would be a bad idea). I've seen this lots of time at outdoor schools, or guided climbs on Rainier or what have you. Of course, this is just the sort of scenario which can start off benign and end up on the Denali-like terrain mentioned above, with similar results. On rock routes it's impossible to self-arrest per se, so if you're tied together and there's no pro, you're simply multiplying your chances of having one person's fall pluck the entire team off the route. These are the routes that have sections which seem best to solo. I totally agree with Dru's point -- the question of safety versus ineffeciency of unroping, coiling, etc -- and where people draw that line is obviously in different places for different people. Speed is safety, in one sense -- yet trying to be "speedy" can result is higher risk and carelessness. Seems like a judgment call, as so many mountaineering choices seem to be. I hope this interesting thread doesn't degenerate into a spray fest! Steve

There have been lots of incidents on Denali in which rope teams venture onto steep icy terrain without placing intermediate pro, and a fall results in the entire team being unable to arrest, and going down. Another (better) scenario is that in which one has a rope team on low angle snow slopes with no pro, but has faith in the rope team's ability to self-arrest (e.g. climbing with less experienced folks for whom soloing would be a bad idea). I've seen this lots of time at outdoor schools, or guided climbs on Rainier or what have you. Of course, this is just the sort of scenario which can start off benign and end up on the Denali-like terrain mentioned above, with similar results. On rock routes it's impossible to self-arrest per se, so if you're tied together and there's no pro, you're simply multiplying your chances of having one person's fall pluck the entire team off the route. These are the routes that have sections which seem best to solo. I totally agree with Dru's point -- the question of safety versus ineffeciency of unroping, coiling, etc -- and where people draw that line is obviously in different places for different people. Speed is safety, in one sense -- yet trying to be "speedy" can result is higher risk and carelessness. Seems like a judgment call, as so many mountaineering choices seem to be. I hope this interesting thread doesn't degenerate into a spray fest! Steve

Two pennies worth: MSR apparently grew tired of replacing all of the dragonflies which were dying due to carbon buildup in the "simmer" valve (the little paper-clip thing which you turn to control heat). NOW they make a small, specialized tool which is available -- they gave me mine for free, but I went there in person and pleaded my case, I think they charge for them now, something like $5 -- to ream out the simmer valve. A few whacks with the little tool and that baby fires right up. Call them if you have a dragonfly which is pissing you off, I love my dragonfly now that I've figured out what kind of field maintenance it needs. You can carry that little tool into the field for longer trips, or just clean the thing realy well before shorter trips. I like the Fly because it simmers, and doesn't burn my rice and beans, which so many other stoves seem to do. Of course, there is the old trick of releasing some of the pressure out of the Whisperlite fuel bottle to make it simmer, but you really need to keep an eye on it or it will extinguish. For simmering , the dragonfly kicks ass. Hey David Parker, I had a Peak One moon landing unit too for awhile, and it DIED on me, in desperate times, I ended up eating snow and vowing to dropkick the thing across the leavenworth parking lot. Glad to hear someone beat me to it. (By the way, I would have retrieved my stove and put it in the trash after dropkicking it, because Leavenworth is nowhere near the Polish Direct, and I am nowhere near Elite). Steve

hi John, The road is open, though it may still close again temporarily if more snow or slides come down. Check out road conditions at: http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/regions/northcentral/maint/area3/nc2001/nc1.htm I have no idea if the route is in good shape right now. I would guess that there's some avalanche concern right now, with the recent snowfall in the area and the warming trend, though I have not been up there lately. Anyone been up there or seen the route lately? steve

Thanks for the route report. I climbed this route with two friends two years ago in May, the year of the BIG cascade snowpack. The large chockstone which Nelson describes in his guidebook as the crux was completely buried and indistinguishable -- we climbed right over it on the 30-45 degree snow, using a single ice ax each. Like you, we had a rope and some pro, but it stayed in the pack. We had crampons as well, which also stayed in the pack. I imagine that under different conditions (i.e. less snow, more ice or rock) that one might be very glad to have some protection, but we had moderately steep snow only. Like you, we also encountered a huge cornice at the top, which overhung the East Buttress. There was so much snow, in fact, that one member of our party carried skis up the SW Couloir and actually skied back down the couloir from the top, which was exciting and terrifying to watch. Though we had approached via spire gully (from the hairpin), we descended to the blue lake trailhead due to lots of point release avalanches barreling down spire gully in the late morning. I think the route will be different this year, due to the lighter snowpack. For example, I wonder what that chockstone section was like for you?? I look forward to more reports if anyone else goes up there anytime soon. Steve Smith

Thanks for the route report. I climbed this route with two friends two years ago in May, the year of the BIG cascade snowpack. The large chockstone which Nelson describes in his guidebook as the crux was completely buried and indistinguishable -- we climbed right over it on the 30-45 degree snow, using a single ice ax each. Like you, we had a rope and some pro, but it stayed in the pack. We had crampons as well, which also stayed in the pack. I imagine that under different conditions (i.e. less snow, more ice or rock) that one might be very glad to have some protection, but we had moderately steep snow only. Like you, we also encountered a huge cornice at the top, which overhung the East Buttress. There was so much snow, in fact, that one member of our party carried skis up the SW Couloir and actually skied back down the couloir from the top, which was exciting and terrifying to watch. I think this route will be different this year, due to the lighter snowpack. I look forward to reports if anyone else goes up there anytime soon. Steve Smith