goatboy

Dear Jason Martin, Bad news for you! Looks like the venerable Captain Caveman has decided not to endorse your product which you haven't published yet. Does this endanger your publishing chances???

This thread began with the following statement and question: "I was wanting to feel a little safer this winter, but I'm not going to shell out $200/beacon. What's up?" My interpretation: "I want to complain about the cost of something." My solution: Don't buy one, then. Just don't expect to ski or climb with people who do have them, as you will be a useless member of the team if you can't help search for your buried teammates. Does that solve the problem? As mentioned, renting one for the occasional foray into avalanche terrain makes sense -- as does buying a used one. As for the reasons WHY they're so expensive, I think Kevin and Erik pretty much hit all the reasons I can think of.

A few of my friends and I took part in this project, which, under Andy Fitz's leadership, managed to re-seed old devegetated slopes, build a rock retaining wall for some eroding trail, and build a stone staircase leading up to one belay area. The project was well attended, well organized, and fun -- though fairly hard work! Carrying big rocks up from the talus field to the trail was not easy. We had very clear, cool fall weather for the project (though the weather kinda went south on us for the next two climbing days). All in all, a good way to give back a little to a pasttime which has given a lot to me. I hope that we can arrange some similar projects around Leavenworth in the spring -- seems that it might help improve relations with some of the local land use managers and rangers and such. Thanks to Andy Fitz for making this project go.

Why do we need to say that one disabled climb is more inspirational than another? It is definitely impressive and inspirational that those folks climbed that bizarre sandstone spire, but that shouldn't diminish what Whittaker did. Sure, he probably used seige tactics and had guides and sherpas, and I'm assuming he even used bottled O2 (!) -- but the fact is that what he accomplished is nonetheless extraordinary. The climb is not significant because it was the FIRST -- it's significant because he was able to CLIMB THE HIGHEST MTN IN THE WORLD WITHOUT THE USE OF A LIMB. My grandmother just had a leg amputated, and will have the other leg amputated in a few weeks due to poor circulation -- and I would like to believe that stories such as Whittaker's can provide inspiration for amputees to accomplish incredible things despite their disabilities. I'm not suggesting that my grandma will be summitting K2 anytime soon, however.

A note on the guidebook: The OLD guidebook (now out of print) kicks ass. The Falcon book by Todd Swain has a lot of routes, but many things (i.e. approach, pitch length, etc) are off, sometimes significantly. Remember to use your head and instincts (as always) rather than wandering around searching for a ledge at 80 feet just because Swain says there SHOULD be one. goatboy

J Tree sounds good to me! I'll be there for thanksgiving. Does Lucky Lager work as sunscreen?

I used to use a munter all the time and as long as you FEED the rope through the munter (rather than PULLING it through the munter, from the climber to the brake side of the know) you don't get the awful kinks and subsequent damage to your rope. Lowering with a munter makes the kinks unavoidable and grim. HOWEVER, now that I have a Reverso, I use it almost exclusively. It kicks ass, as a previous thread discussed. No kinks, self-locking, equally easy to self-rescue, as you've already escaped the belay. In fact, it's easier to self-rescue because unlike a munter, which requires a mule knot to tie off, the reverso is self-locking! (I would back it up anyway, but it's easier to do so than a munter/mule combination). Anyone agree with that? Steve

Joshua Tree Thanksgiving Ouray Christmas/New Years!!!! Banff in the springtime. lots of chicken wings and IPA meanwhile.

Holy shit. I can't believe this. Of course, people are innocent until proven guilty (contrary to what George Bush seems to think) but I did go to Fatali's website. Here's what he says: "No computer imaging, artificial lighting, or unnatural filtration were used as tools in the creation of these photographs. I use only natural light for all the images made for the gallery collection of handmade photographic prints. To me, using nature's light is the best way to express the wonders of natural phenomena. Waiting for hours, days, or sometimes even years for the right light is what it takes to communicate the wonder." If he is guilty of starting these destructive fires to manipulate the light all for commercial profit, the man is a liar (and a criminal) and should be locked up for a long time, in my opinion. Steve

Bronco, My picture scares ME too!

Sorry. Ouray is an icepark in SW Colorado, not too far from Telluride -- real ice, created by artificial means (a pipe which seeps water into a canyon). Supposed to be a great place, though it can get crowded in there I hear. They have an ice festival each year. I believe the site is Ouray Ice Park

As I revisit the thread I started, I notice that someone rated me as a "4". Thanks for that! But I'm still clueless about what this rating represents???? Anyone?

As I recall, the Chouinard lawsuit was an absurd one, which Chouinard ended up losing anyway. A climber (who I believe was a lawyer) was being guided (with his other lawyer buddies) and took his harness off on some ledge to take a pee. When he put the harness back on, he failed to double back the buckle. He tied in. He climbed. He fell. Harness failed due to improper use. Chouinard gets sued and loses. Seems to me that's like someone buying a car, misunderstanding how to use the seatbelt, having a wreck, and blaming the car company for faulty seatbelts. And winning. Or the lady who dumped coffee all over herself and sued McDonald's for a zillion dollars (because unlike most restauarant coffee, the Mccoffee wasn't appropriate for wearing in her lap?) whatever!

My understanding of the membership is that it's voluntary -- the park is still free and anyone can use it, member or not -- but if you're a member, you get discounts at local stores, lodging, etc. Plus, being a member helps support the enterprise and keeps the ice flowing. I intend to join, as I will be down there in january. goatboy

So forgive me for asking something that may be obvious to everyone else -- but "wazzup" with the new rating each other feature? Is this just a "for fun" thing, or is it actually supposed to mean something (i.e. credibility, reliabilty, etc)? There are no criteria given for how to make the rating -- in other words, are we rating how funny the person is, how frequently they post (seems like that rating is already provided beneath each person's name), how much beer they drink at Pub Club, whether they can climb ice in sandals, or what? Seems to me that the rating of each other is simply an arbitrary thing that essentially does nothing positive for the board, and has the potential to send people to the battlecage (which happens often enough on this site without having built-in invitations to do so). Am I missing the point of this function, or do others out there agree with me? Having said this, I would like to add that I enjoy and appreciate the fact that this web-community exists, and I often get useful route info and entertainment from this site. I'm just not sure of the actual purpose or reason for this new rating feature. Thanks, Steve

My nominees? Anyone who goes out and risks their personal safety to help strangers -- maybe it's their job, maybe they're volunteering. Boukreev did it, because it was his job and because that's what kind of person he was. My friend George, who was a firefighter in NY, died trying to pull people out of the world trade center -- he was supposedly high up on the 60th floor or so when the whole thing came down. Anyone that volunteers on SAR teams, or even people who TEACH wilderness first aid -- these folks are my nominees. I agree that what Alex Lowe did was huge and unbelievable -- but those are terms that characterize much of his amazing life. We can't all be Alex Lowes, but we CAN all contribute something. I have no idea what it's like to be at very high altitude, so I can't critize the choices people made up there -- but I DO think there's a distinction between avoiding a rescue because you're too tired and your safety is at risk, and people who avoid helping others just because they don't personally know them. steve

Didn't climb a thing. Drove up the Cle Elum River road and saw snowy peaks, Cathedral Rock and Mt Daniel, very lovely. Also noted that the south side of stuart (and nearby peaks) were covered in new snow. Lovely day, Saturday. As for dogs at the crags, it's inevitable. But owners should understand that just because THEY know fido is friendly, doesn't mean that everyone else has the same comfort zone. Keeping dogs on leashes or at least under control is not an unreasonable thing to ask for. Having said that, it's sometimes nice to see some of the Outward Hounds!

Seems to me that the time of year really influences the view -- i.e. early spring when everything is still snowy and alpine vs late summer when it's all talus and scree (on the East Side, at least). One of my favorite early season views is the 360 degree panorama from South Early Winter Spire, the highest of the Liberty Bell Group -- you can see all the cornices, snowy aretes and avalanche debris around Washington Pass, the granite spires of the Liberty Bell Massif sticking up, the looming mass of Silverstar, North into the snowy Pasayten and the tip of Baker, West into the snowy reaches of the National Park, nearby Black Peak, the Chickamin Glacier, Dome, Forbidden, and many others . . . Very stellar early season view. Later in the year, after it melts out a bit more, the view (not to mention the approach) is a bit compromised.

I guess my question is, What ARE big numbers? I've been climbing about ten years and feel proud when I lead anything in the 5.10's, especially in the alpine. I've climbed harder on some days, and failed on 5.9's other days... I believe that the climbing mags have amped everyone up by touting the handfull of mutants who CAN convince their bionic tendons to climb 5.13's, 5.14's, whatever . . . . leading many of us to overlook or belittle what an accomplishment safely leading 5.7's can be!!!! Thanks for starting this post, I appreciate hearing your thoughts on this topic, and am curious what others will say. [This message has been edited by goatboy (edited 10-09-2001).]

Dragontail Attempt: An Exercise in Judgment Kevin and I climbed part of the Serpentine Arete on Sunday morning (10/7) before retreating in a gathering storm. 5 Am Wake-up. Coffee and mashed potatoes with cheddar cheese fueled us up nicely for the challenges ahead. Skies were dark with patchy clear stars shining through. Moon was a milky blob in the cloudy sky. Winds were fairly mild. "Kicked steps" up the crumbly morainal slopes from Colchuck Lake to the Glacier. The sun rising cast colors on the peaks to the North, and lit up a few gendarmes high on Dragontail in morning alpenglow. Put on rock shoes for what Beckey describes as 4th-class terrain. Ended up not traversing far enough left, and instead doing a variation on the Black Buttress just right of the white, sloped shelfs which Beckey recommends. The variation we did followed steppy ramps and corners with pretty sounds rock but sparse cracks for pro -- approximately 5.7 (felt like 5.8 with the packs on!!!) Midway through this section we roped up on a ledge and climbed a full rope length to join up with the standard approach. Now we were back on route, and since we were roped up already, we simulclimbed to the normal roping-up spot below a small pillar with a wide layback. Climbed that pillar in one long pitch to the base of the large, prominent pillar. Had to simul-climb the last 20 feet or so before reaching an adequate anchor on the large ledge (anchored off one of the huge boulders imbedded on the ledge). As I belayed my partner up to the ledge, I watched the distant and not-so-distant peaks slowly disappear in a descending cloud layer. Small snowflakes began to fall. Wind picked up. We reasoned that since we were essentially one pitch up, and a storm was obviously approaching, we would be wise to save this route for another time. A series of rappels from larch trees took us straight back down the route, then down the black buttress and onto the morainal slopes again (6 full single-rope rappels, with a little down-climbing on easy but loose ledges and corners). Disappointing not to summit, but exciting to be on the arete in a rising storm. As it turned out, the storm blew through in about an hour, and then things cleared up a bit, leading us to ALMOST second-guess ourselves. But we managed to make a distinction: Feeling disappointed over not summiting is one thing, but second-guessing our judgment and beating ourselves up for retreating is another. We chose to feel disappointed, but not to beat ourselves up. We'll be back another day!

So some friends are trying to convince me to climb Backbone Ridge instead of Serpentine and I'm curious -- since I HATE offwidths, can anyone tell me more about the offwidth section on Backbone? (i.e. how long, how steep, what kind of pro recommended, etc). For those of you who have done both routes, did you clearly prefer one route over the other, or should I just start with Serpentine and do Backbone another time? I know these questions are vague and subjective, just wanted to test the waters out there and talk about routes with folks who have done them. Thanks! Steve

I for one feel that these battles are very worth fighting, but it seems to me that the system itself is set up to pre-dispose people to confess guilt, not out of "coming clean," but out of convenience. I live about 4-5 hours from Yakima, and 4 hours from Leavenworth, in Eastern Washington. Were I to get such ticket, it would be very hard to get off work, travel the requisite distance to court (twice or more?), perhaps have to camp or stay in some hotel somewhere, all to possibly lose the case anyway. Perhaps spending more money in the process of fighting the ticket than if I paid it to begin with? My point: I hope you fellows fight the good fight here -- and I truly admire and support you if you do -- but does anyone else out there feel that the system itself predisposes people to just pay tickets rather than fight them? "That government is best which governs least" -- Henry David Thoreau

Thanks so much for all the great information and suggestions. It's good to see a thread relatively spray-free (for a change!!!) Texplorer, I will only be there for about a week, though I'd be happy to meet up with you for a beer or to swing some tools! I will be there with my girlfriend, but it sounds like the kind of social climbing area where being a party of three could be better than a party of two, at times! As for jobs in Telluride, I believe it's pretty easy. My brother lives in Rico (south of Telluride) and I'm sure he could help hook you up . . . now, having said that, there's a LOT more jobs in Telluride than places to live. If you're willing to tough it out car camping or whatever in the winter, that works, though the local authorities are pretty hard on people trying to live in their cars . . . such a strange little valley, with the verrrrry verrrrrry rich and the very poor all jammed together in the same place for similar reasons, but in very different living conditions.....Someone once said that there is a leisure class at either end of the socioeconomic scale. Telluride demonstrates that pretty clearly.

The Cave Route is a good one. Here's what I recall: Approach via Beckey Gully (between Liberty Bell and Concord) Rope up and start climbing about 40 feet below the notch at the top of the gully -- maybe a bit lower -- what you're looking for is a little crack/ledge system you can traverse about 20-some feet out (to the right) before pulling a 5.8/5.9 move up into easier climbing. You're aiming for the little tree; this is the top of the first pitch. Second pitch is kinda yucky -- gritty, friable rock leads up and left about 50 feet or less to the base of the CAVE, which is huge (big enough to walk through without touching the walls on either side, and about 20 feet long). So you walk through the cave . . . and then Third pitch climbs out the west side of the cave up a STELLAR crack -- intially wide, narrows to easy hand jamming at about 5.5 or so. This pitch goes to the fixed anchors just below the summit. We rappeled down the South side and climbed Lexington North Face next, calling the link-up "The Battle of Lexington and Concord" just to be cute. Hope this info is helpful, though it comes months after you initally asked. Gear: Small rack of stoppers and cams to about 3'. Rap Anchors are all fixed. It is easy to Rap back to the base of the NF too, if you like, as there are rap anchors in place there as well. A fun route, and not as hard to protect (I thought) as Beckey indicates. A good one to do when the ever-popular Beckey Route is crowded.

I'll be visiting family in the Ouray area this January (right around new years) and am curious if anyone of you folks out there has ever ice climbed in the area? I'm curious about the ice park, though I am a bit skeptical about it -- but I'm also curious about any recommended waterfalls in the area which might typically be in good shape in January? I started ice climbing a few years back, and wouldn't want to get on anything harder than a WI4 -- though I'm also wondering if ice ratings change from area to area as much as rock ratings do (i.e. a Vantage 5.11 vs a Leavenworth 5.11 is quite a difference!) Any thoughts are appreciated. Thanks, Steve