goatboy

I'm trying to imagine a scenario in which I would belay two leaders from one belay stance -- and I can't come up with any that make sense to me. What was the situation? And yes, the Gi-Gi is normally used for belaying two seconds at once. Pretty cool, practical, lightweight device. Steve

I think this is a fascinating topic, one that I think about a lot. I am NOT a parent, but have given thought to how being one would change the nature of the climbing that I am willing to do. I feel that when one has kids, they become your first and primary responsibility. Alex Lowe? Certainly one of the greatest climbers, and from what I've read, greatest people. Although he died reconning a climb, he essentially died while pursuing his dreams and living his life very, very fully. Alex was a very strong, and from what I've read, very safe climber. Dan Osman -- I did not know him, but I would not call him a "very safe climber." This guy died pulling off his extreme bungee jumping routine -- leaving a wife and a kid behind. To me, that's different from Alex did, because Alex only took risks associated with climbing, whereas Dan only climbed in order to take risks. Anyone agree with this distinction between risk as part of your dream and lifestyle VERSUS risk as a goal in itself?

How about "moderates?" Climbing Ragazine uses this word to refer to climbs 5.11 and under . . . Not exactly a "moderate" day for me, but hey, I'm still a sport-climber-wannabe . . . I'm not good enough yet for spandex or a stick clip!!! That said, I do enjoy the tech tips and John Long's articles. The recent issue has a good story about Donini and the accident up in the alaska range. So it's not all bad.

Speaking of yosemite . . . Two words: Braille Book. CRAZY HARD for 5.8, thought I was gonna pitch off that thing, ended up backing off one pitch like a whimpering child. Finished it in the dark, though, cruising the section called "knob mania" by moonlight. Pretty cool route, but HARD for the rating. Anyone agree???

Will strickland: The Joshua Tree route you're talking about is "Buissonier." Definitely STIFF for 5.7 (like many JT routes).Kind of a barn-door sort of affair all the way up -- but the pro is definitely great, all the way. Many 5.7's at JT were put up in the old days, and are harder than 5.9's at JT that were put up later. My sandbag pick: Bale-Kramar on Careno Crag. WAY HARD for 5.10b or whatever they call it. The "boulder problem" start is quite thin, and the crux crack is awkward, balancy, and strenuous to adequately protect in a few spots near the ground. In short, way harder than nearby climbs also rated 5.10. Steve

I think I know WHAT it is . . . but When is it and where is it?

Climbed the NE Ridge of Black Peak this weekend in windy/threatening weather that turned nice as we climbed, then grew windier as we summitted and descended. Apporach: Approach to Wing Lake took 3.5 hours, mostly on trail with some talus. A bit of up and down on the approach, as you climb to heather pass, descend hundreds of feet on the other side to Lewis Lake, then climb back up into beuatiful larches and moraines, arriving at Wing Lake, where there is great camping in impacted sites above the lake. The Climb: The next morning we awoke at 4:30, drank coffee, and looked around at the clouds and wind. It looked pretty mediocre, so we decided just to climb to the col on the NE ridge and re-assess from there. Took about an hour and a half to get to the notch from camp, including a very nice firm snowfield (crampons and ax mandatory for that section). The ridge featured pretty mediocre-to-bad rock for the lower 1/3 or so, but improved considerably as it narrowed, steepened, and became more difficult. It never really felt harder than 5.5, and we simulclimbed all the way to the summit block in two long "pitches" of simulclimbing. A short third pitch (maybe 60 feet) had us on top. The views were excellent: Goode close up and personal, the awesome NE Buttress and very fractured glacier below; the North ridge and East Ridge of Forbidden; Sharkfin Tower, Boston Peak, Sahale and the Sahale Arm; Glacier Peak; Logan, Liberty Bell and Cutthroat and on and on, all the way to Rainier barely peaking up over the southern horizon. It was truly a good day for peak-viewing . . . . The Descent: One word: Dumb. Super loose gully, definitely better to descend than to slog up though! It would be MUCH better in early summer when full of snow, I'd reckon. Here we saw descending parties knocking shit down on helmet-less soloists coming up, not that the descending parties could help it . . . Anyway, it took our party of three 7 hours camp to camp, including some hang-out time on summit and just below summit. I do recommend this climb for the views, though the rock quality itself is suspect. Nelson likens the ridge to the West Ridge of Forbidden, and I would agree that it's similar in places -- a "sidewalk" with big exposure on either side, especially the north side and the big broken glacier over there. It felt good to climb such a massive peak -- Black Peak is listed at 8970, so its definitely one of the bigger ones in the surrounding area. I hope this info is useful to folks, either as entertainment while you're at work not working, or as beta for future trips. Steve

Congratulations, Hakiowa. I have two cents to toss in here: You wrote: "If you go right, go way right. Remember the easy way (we never found it) is suppossed to have an easy 30’ slab to the summit. If you find yourself looking up a crack system/chimney to directly to the summit keep going right!" When we climbed the spire in July, it was snowing, and visibility was poor (like 50 feet at most). We found our way through the little tunnel you mentioned, then managed to go WAY right and slightly upward on Burgundy Ledge, around a corner on a smaller ledge -- and here, we found a straightforward (though steep in places) finger crack that I'd call solid 5.8. Small nuts and aliens would help here, though you could get by without them (as we did). This leads up and left to a large ledge, then up a wide crack on the left side of a big flake (which was full of ice in July). This is the final obstacle, and then you're sitting on the summit ridge about 50 feet west of the true summit. We took one rope, and it was fine to rap off with one. Two would have speeded things up on the rappels, though would have weighted us down on the slog up to burgundy col. To whomever pooped and left toilet paper at the bivy on burgundy col, why don't you consider how your actions affect others and try to be a bit more responsible in the future? All in all, this is a glorious route, and definitely one worth repeating when there's better visibility! Steve

Hey Matt, I'm sorry to hear about the theft of your gear. I doubt you'll get it back, but hope that you do. A question: Since you fixed the rope on 8/6 and posted your message on the 31'st . . . was your rope fixed all that time? If so, perhaps that contributed to whatever poor choice the thief made -- not that this excuses them, but I'm just curious about the details. If your rope was fixed for all those weeks, who knows how someone interpreted that. Steve

Congrats to everyone who climbed some classic routes (DEB, West Face, NW Corner, E Ridge) this past weekend. I'm jealous.... We climbed Ingalls Peak, South Ridge. Simul-climbed it in 19 minutes. then napped on summit. A fine route, but awfully short climb for a relatively long approach. Great views of peaks in every direction, due to clear blue skies and not as much smoke as I expected. Actually carried Beckey's book up there and used it to identify peaks and routes, pretty fun way to spend an hour or so. Two friends of mine ran into Fred on the s ridge of ingalls a few weeks back, by the way... Anyway, a medium day in the mountains is better than ANY day at home . . . Hoping to get back up to the wash. pass area this weekend....

Thanks much for the report, folks. I'm planning on having a go one of these upcoming weekends. Any problems getting a permit up there, you reckon, over a weekend? I know it's not as hectic as the Boston Basin zoo, but they only give out permits for two parties at a time in that area, as I understand it . . . guess I'll just have to try my luck.

Hey folks, Has anyone approached Mt Triumph (via the standard Thornton Lakes way) lately? I'm curious about the state of the glacier crossing there. Thanks in advance for any responses or beta. Off Belay, Steve

Regarding aviation wreckage, I seem to remember reading about a helicopter crash up there this spring. Must have been heli-ski folks. Anyone else remember that? As for burgundy vs. silverstar creek, I gotta vote for burgundy. It's steep and long (over 3500 vertical as I recall) but so direct and not as bad as it sounds -- on good trail the whole way, once you cross early winter creek --- and pretty clear where you're going the whole time. Takes about 2.5 - 3 hours to the col from the car. Silverstar creek is more of a wander, without much trail to follow, and potential to run into obstacles like slabs and creeks and other things which slow you down. I'd rather take the steep and direct than the wandering anyday. Classic parallel example: Tried to approach eldorado via sibley ridge once, hoping to avoid the steep eldo creek approach. Mistake. Got lost and wandered too much on ridge, didn't climb peak as planned. Next time, I'll opt for steep and direct. Burgundy Col is the way to go, for me. Steve

I heard from some firefighting folks that the icicle ridge fire was actually quite big -- is that right? I didn't know there was a lot left to burn up there that hadn't already burned, shows you what I know. Anyway, I wonder if it's causing any access issues or damage to climbing areas. Any updates from local folks is appreciated. Thanks. I'm planning on calling leavenworth ranger station but it's too early in the morning right now...rangers must be sleeping still! Steve

The Liberty Bell massif is very climb-able right now. In the past week, I've been on Liberty Bell twice (beckey route and rapple grapple) and both routes are in great shape, no water on either route. There is snow in the approach gully, but it seems to be melting very fast. South Early Winter Spire still has patches of snow on the south arete (as of a few days ago) but it too is melting fast. The SW Couloir is completely melted out, though I ran into two british lads who trudged up the thing a few days ago (??????) The north face of concord was still quite wet, with snowmelt running down it in large quantities. The tunnel route on concord still has a large snowpatch at the cave entrance. Very large cornice collapses and even some climax avalanches have taken place over the last few weeks around wash. pass. Blue Lake Peak has an immense cornice on it which seems destined to collapse sooner rather than later. In short, things are very climbable right now though it is recommended to be very alert to volatile snow conditions pertaining to avalanches and cornices right now. I haven't been to burgundy but I imagine the north face is still wet and may not be in great shape yet this season. Burgundy Col itself is melted out and shows bare talus. Hope this info is helpful to you and others. Steve

You're right, mountain guy. The couloir is now a big funnel of dirt and snowmelt and patchy snow, no ice to be seen. Ugly. To be avoided for sure. We climbed the south arete, and it's in good shape with no ice in the chimney, and only a few patches of snow along the way. By the way, sometime (last year I think) someone bolted the 20-foot long knife edge section near the top of the south arete route. By "bolted," I mean that they placed a single bolt on the north side of the knife-edge, about halfway across. This allows folks to lead this exposed knife edge and protect it -- but I wonder who did that, and if that bolt is really necessary? The climb is very frequently used by guide services or classes(such as AAI and the Mountaineers) and I wonder if those organizations were involved in bolting that arete. Steve

Hey folks, Has anyone been in the southwest couloir of South Early Winter Spire lately? I'm hoping to climb it on Wednesday and am curious if there's any ice -- also, how melted out the chockstone is (in other words, will there be some rock climbing to skirt the chockstone?) I'm planning (right now) on taking a picket, some screws, some rock gear, and an ice tool plus an ice ax. If anyone has any recent reports that may dissuade me from taking all that stuff, please let me know. (I soloed the thing a few winters back, when the chockstone was completely buried under massive record-breaking snowfall. I expect a very different climb this week, but am not sure what I'll find there.) Appreciate any news or advice anyone may have. Thanks much! Steve

I'm curious if Orbit is wet at all this time of year. I've heard that it can be wet in early season. Also, has anyone out there done the 5.7 slab route on Snow Creek Wall -- memory tells me that it's called the White Slabs, but I am known to forget things. Thanks very much for any info that you care to share. Steve

Yeah, Forrest!

[This message has been edited by goatboy (edited 05-08-2001).]

I disagree with the "you lose" attitude being expressed here. There's a difference, in my book, between abandoning gear on a route versus leaving it on a rock in the parking lot. Cleaning gear that another party abandoned is great. Taking ropes out of the parking lot is lame. Anyway, everyone likes finding booty, but who wants a used rope whose history you do not even know? I hope you get your friend's rope back, Nwdiver, and I hope that this site remains a place where folks can post lost and found messages without getting unhelpful responses.

(I'm trying to edit an earlier post -- so I hope this doesn't just repeat the earlier post) A point of clarification: fredrogers mentioned that he has seen Outward Bound groups in the Icicle. I work for outward bound, and we do not take groups to leavenworth, nor have we in recent memory. I know that NOLS does use icicle creek for their rock camps, though my guess is that they try to do so in a respectful way. Many people confuse NOLS with Outward Bound, but they are separate schools. Back to the point of this thread: Seeking instruction is good. Doing so in a way which creates large impact and potential conflict with land-owners in an already-touchy area is questionable judgment, because in addition to being instructed technically, I believe novice climbers need to be instructed as to the politics and responsibilities associated with being a climber. That includes being aware of the environment, of other people, and of the politics of climbing in protected areas or private property. Steve [This message has been edited by goatboy (edited 05-07-2001).] [This message has been edited by goatboy (edited 05-07-2001).]

There were very large parties in the Icicle over this past weekend (May 5-6). I'm guessing that it was the Mountaineers? I saw a helicopter fly very low through icicle creek canyon towards leavenworth, coming from icicle buttress direction. Was that related to the accident? I notice that the Mountaineers always have accident reports in the annual journal, Accidents in NA Mountaineering, but is that because they are accident-prone, or because they have so many people out that they're statistically bound to have accidents, or because they have under-prepared people leading the inexperienced, or because they are organized enough to actually submit accident reports (while many groups do not do so)? In any case, I hope the injured party is recovering. Any update on that? Steve

Maybe this thread will degenerate into people insulting people whom they don't even know like many do -- after all, it's just words and characters on a two-dimensional screen, right? Or, maybe some more constructive or communicative dialogue can actually take place, ideas exchanged by the people behind the characters on the screen. My hope is for the latter. Here are my ideas, for those who care to hear them. People "getting in touch with nature" is one thing -- though it may be illegal in this american society, it may or may not be morally acceptable, depending on one's value system. That's a personal choice, and people have as much right to make personal moral choices as others have rights to choose otherwise. HOWEVER, choosing to engage in narcotics (or drinking, or whatever) WHILE climbing means that you are making choices that affect (and reflect upon) all climbers. When pothead johnny has a climbing accident while on dope, there are two possible scenarios that I see: 1) the rescue team realizes he was on drugs while climbing, and that reflects badly on all climbers; 2) the rescue team fails to realize that he was on drugs, but had an accident anyway. Who knows if the accident may have been influenced by drug use, but the accident does influence public perception of climbing and climbers, possibly leading to more governmental regulations and other sanctions. There will always be accidents, and I'm not attributing that fact to drug use -- however, I am stating emphatically that when you choose to use drugs and climb, you're not just affecting yourself. You may be affecting the public's perception of climbers and climbing, and you may also be affecting the safety of the rescue parties who come to your aid. On a personal note, I climb to get a high that lasts, and feel more "in touch with nature" when my perception is not one step removed from its natural state. I KNOW that lots of people smoke dope or drink and climb -- and that there is a long tradition of beer drinking as part of the climbing culture -- I myself have been known to singlehandedly keep Gustav's in business during the summer months -- but my point is that it's important to make a critical distinction between drinking/drug use AFTER climbing versus DURING climbing, for the reasons I stated above. My hope is that those who disagree with my view will at least attempt to respect my right to my view, and attempt to understand my view, before calling me an idiot or other names. It means a lot more to me to be called an idiot AFTER you understand me (wink, wink). In light of this conversation, should we all Climb High, or hang out in the Lowe Alpine? I wonder what views others have, and if people think it's important to make conscious choices about whether or not one is going to use drugs while climbing. Thanks for any insight others can offer. Steve Smith (my real name!)

Phil, I had NO idea you had x rays of the skeletons inside my closet! Thanks for the image -- it does look like a good route, which was (unfortunately for us) in good shape the day we mis-approached. Oh well, another lesson from the cascades..... and another route to dream about and hopefully go do some day. I got some good days in up around Banff this winter, so I made up for the eldorado bungle I reckon.