TimL

Sounds simple to me. A 11c with a 10- runout. If you can climb 11+, 10- shouldn't be a problem. If there is gear somewhere, then plug it and put a long runner on the piece. Here in Spain there are tons of huge limestone 500 meter faces with "sport" routes going up them. Most of the "easier" routes weigh in with pitches in the 10+ range and there are many more routes that have several pitches in the 11+ and 12 range. Granted there are a lot of strong climbers here but not everyone is climbing those grades. As you can imagine, whoever is bolting a 500 meter route would be bolting sparingly. Hence the guides give a mandatory free climbing grade that you have to climb to do the route. The guide would say something like "Me gusta tetas grandes 10d/Ao or 12a (10d Mandatory)" If you can't do this grade, you risk huge falls. Maybe the guide to this climb in question should mention like this.

Leave the climb as it is. It's a nice route. It's been chopped, bolted chopped and bolted. If someone chops it, it'll be bolted again. The only thing that will suffer is the climb itself. If your so worried about bolted cracks, you don't have to look very far away from Cunning Stunt to find another one.

Hey Ken. When training, think about what you are doing for training. Two or thre hours bouldering is good, but what are you doing. I've trained for a long time in the gym by climbing. But climbing in the gym is just that, climbing. I've read a couple books about specific training programs and totally altered the way I go about "training" in the gym. After about 6 weeks or so I've noticed a huge difference when I'm climbing outside. I second what Rudy said. Find a route, one that you like a lot and you think is worthy, and keep at it untill you get it. Also, build your training periods around when you'll be climbing more. Here in Spain there is always rock to climb, except right now cause its friggin raining everywhere. Usually in the spring and the fall I find myself cragging more and in the summer and winter climbing more alpine routes. So I build my spring training periods to get strong on crag routes to do harder alpine routes.

The French are renoun for going to remote areas and leaving trash all over the place. Should we accept and duplicate this practice as well? The French and Spanish bolt the cracks. Should we accept and duplicate this practice as well? You want I should go on? Blah, blah blah. it sounds like you like hearing yourself talk. people don't leave draws up on anything lower than a 13+ here. On the 14's the draws arn't left up for long. The reason is if you leave them up they'll get stolen.

Nice work!

I've climbed there in March in nice conditions. You just have to pick the right days. Must do routes: Bonnies Roof Ants Line High Exposure CCK Lime Light Arrow Dangler. There are so many good routes that are side by side. You can get a lot done in a couple days. For ice the Dacks arn't that far. March should be OK.

U know, maybe I jumped the gun. I'm going to sit on it a bit and ask a couple old school locals. The climbers of the 80's, which here is when alot of hard routes were developed. I'm not really concerned either with what people think, neither am I going to import my ethics. Nationalities aside, we are all climbers and ywe have to take care of our resources. The thing I see here is that it doesn't matter that much what happens, be it good or bad. Like most places, people are all bark and no bite. Some people might get a little hot, but nothing is going to happen. No bolt wars, arguments..nothing. At least thats what I see being an outsider. Chipping, grid bolting, bolting on holds, glueing holds. The feeling here is that if a couple chipped or manufactured holds will make a route go, then so be it. Or if you have to chip a meter or two to get to the climb, or add holds, then so be it. The thing is there are some crazy bold climbs, the there are the sport bolted routes next to perfect cracks. But for now, I'm going to leave it. I'll take some pictures when I get a chance.

U know, maybe I jumped the gun. I'm going to sit on it a bit and ask a couple old school locals. The climbers of the 80's, which here is when alot of hard routes were developed. I'm not really concerned either with what people think, neither am I going to import my ethics. Nationalities aside, we are all climbers and ywe have to take care of our resources. The thing I see here is that it doesn't matter that much what happens, be it good or bad. Like most places, people are all bark and no bite. Some people might get a little hot, but nothing is going to happen. No bolt wars, arguments..nothing. At least thats what I see being an outsider. Chipping, grid bolting, bolting on holds, glueing holds. The feeling here is that if a couple chipped or manufactured holds will make a route go, then so be it. Or if you have to chip a meter or two to get to the climb, or add hold, then so be it. The thing is there are some crazy bold climbs, the there are the sport bolted routes next to perfect cracks. But for now, I'm going to leave it. I'll take some pictures when I get a chance.

Not stuffing anything down anyones throat, neither do I want to. Nor am I lecturing anybody. Its just something that is going to happen. I'm not part of any faction who is lecturing one way or the other. I know that there are people here who have been restoring climbs, but I don't know them. At this point there are just two climbs that I'm going to restore when I get the time. One is a blatently bolted finger crack that was an aid climb, then someone bolted it and freed it at around 11d/12a with manufactured pockets in a blank wall after the top of the crack so the climb could be extended a meter. I've already climbed this route on gear and its totaly easy to free on gear and everything is bomber. I'm going to patch the bolt holes then patch the manufactured pockets then move the shitty anchor down to the end of the crack where the logical ending should be. Second route is just a route with old dowl like bolts. This is a corner that goes on gear easily. The place is called Pedriza and its all granite. The place is beautiful, but many routes are a mess. People really havn't taken care of their resources there. I've seen people come and go and do whatever they please. Its actually kinda sickening. I'm pretty laid back, but when I see these routes in particular, it makes me sick. I'm not going to spray about anything, but I won't deny it either. You can't put North American reasoning/logic to this issue because ethics are just different here. People really just do whatever they want from what I've seen.

I know I'm going to get tons of shit for this here in Spain, but there are more than several climbs, bolted cracks, that I'm going to "restore" here in the next year. The thing is that I've never drilled a bolt and never pulled a bolt. Before I do anything I would like some pointers on how to pull a bolt without damaging the rock too much and then what is the best way patch up the hole? Keep in mind, I don't want this to be the beginning of a huge bolting debate, just the 1,2,3's of doing some good work.

Rudy! I wish, but this year staying in Spain. Elena's been deemed as a terrorist by the U.S. so they won't let her back in.... just teasing. The boss is making me leave for Siurana the day after Christams....so won't be able to make it. Really though, missing the NW. We're figuring out when we will make our next trip back. Hopefully soon. Christmas here is a bit weird. It's not really celebrated like in the States. Magic Kings Day, Jan 6, is celebrated more. How's the fam?

I've seen the "kids" who are climbing 13's and 14's walk up to 12+ crack and put it down in a couple goes. Even 12 crack climbing is fairly common. Last weekend I was all happy that I put down a 7c until my buddy ran up to tell me he just onsited a 7c. I'm still the most shitty climber in the group. Really though, grades don't matter that much. Just make sure your having fun.

Climb something were you might actually lob off and then you'll understand.

The rope stays in a nice cold closet. Ropes been used several times on small walls, but nothing big and really has no damage. I'm thinking of saving it for walls, bit someone told me that nylon breaks down over time so I thought I might just put it to use versus letting it sit in the closet. Use is not the issue, it how long it can sit around. Weather here in Spain is great right now. Not to hot, not to cold. Although it has been really rainy ever since we got back from the States in October. It'll soon be time to head down to the Costa Blanca and Andalucia/El Chorro for some beautiful winter climber before the ice starts to form in the Pyrenes.

I have a rope that I bought for wall climbing, Mammut Supersafe 10.2, thats seen a little use, but not tons. I doubt I'll be going up on any big walls in the next six months and the cord is already a year old. So I'm thinking of turnig it into a sport climbing rope since I need a new one right now. But before I do that, I was wondering how long should I keep the rope, without really using it, before I should retire it. Thanks for any and all info.

How many people really think ROTC is as hard as the grade implies? In reality, it is an amazing climb, but to me it never felt that hard. I'd call it 3 or 4 grades lower. Agreed, extremely "soft" for the grade (but still a great pitch!) There's no move harder than 10+ and if you take a rest in the middle of the pitch then that is what you climbed, a 10+. Most of the folks I've heard poo poo ROTC revealed that they did it with one hang. Many experienced crack climbers I've talked to call it 5.11c (like I remember Wallstein writing as much). I thought it was more difficult than Japanese Gardens. The year I first tried it I had flashed every 5.11 I attempted but on ROTC I couldn't squirm up the final squeez bulge (until I dispensed with a slippery wind breaker). Two years later I nailed it first try but it felt even harder. Think of any number of local popular 5.11- pitches such as Thin Fingers, Clean Crack, 1st pitch of Liberty Crack, Hot Cherry Bendover. ROTC is harder than any of these. In fact, ROTC is like having several Hot Cherry Bendover pitches stacked consecutively and tilted steeper. Hot Cherry has a reputation for spitting off "5.11 climbers". I think ROTC is 11-. I felt ROTC had no hard move anywhere. Maybe one in the middle, but for me it was more the sequence of the jams. I put it down on my second go, no hangs. ROTC is pumpy and actually the business is short lived, but technical it is not. Jap Gardens and Clay are all technical with definite hard moves and cruxes. Now Clean Crack, I jumped on that again this past summer and it felt really, really hard for the grade. Anyways, no matter whaqt the grade, ROTC is one of the best single pitches in WA.

i beenn climbin over 30 years, not much of it in the great PNW (bein new here) but i have been around. i just wanted to say that soulreaper doesnt sound like a "young" climber. sounds like you really have your ethical sh&& together and i appreciate reading your posts. its good to see someone who is not totally anti- or totally pro-bolt posting here. not that others are'nt. He's young motivated and tearing shit up

I'm not following you here. Doesn't the availability of a rappel anchor make this initial bit of Japanese Gardens an easily climbed/returned-to-the-ground option for those looking for 5.10-? How is that not making that bit of rock "accessible?" How would removing all fixed anchors promote "access?" I probably don't disagree with you, but I'm unclear on these points. Its kind of a "all or nothing" statement. There are so many anchors providing access at Index that the anchors on Jap Gardens really don't make that big of a difference. Really, I don't think I have ever had to set up a natural belay at Index. Soulreaper is right, the stance at the anchor is not a "no hands stance....or maybe it is if you are eight feet tall. I really wish I didn't post this topic...but I did. Gotta learn to keep my big mouth shut. I believe bolting has a place. If people are having issues with JG, they should open their eyes and look a little bit to the right or left. Then I think they would have something to talk about, and there are some climbs that I think should be returned to their natural state, but this is not the place for that discussion.

This is not a question of making JG more accessible. If we are talking access we would remove all fixed anchors and make people climb up and over the LTW and walk off. This is just a question of replacing an established fixed anchor. Nobody would of thought twice about the route neither the anchor if someone hadn't taken it.

I'm thinking of jumping into a guidebook project here in Spain, and I'm not exactly sure how to begin in terms of how to draw the designs for the topos. I'm sure there are programs out there, but I have no idea what they are. Any beta on programs, easy/best designs would be awesome. Also, any tips or ideas would be awesome as well! Thanks.

Look up Steel Monkey in the guide. I think the pitch in the picture is a 5.11+ to the right of it.

well said

Don't play that game, for every moderate you name I can name twice or three times as many hard routes. Besides, there are not many more moderates than you listed above.

In reality, with all the people I've see pulling down this summer in Europe, Canada and in the US, yeah, 5.8 to 5.10- is moderate. At least now it is...but maybe 20 years ago it was pretty hard. But...depends who you are, one mans moderate is anothers top end.