Trundling ethics:

[billcoe]

On another thread, Underworld asked this?

 

i don't mean to start up a bolting thing again and i don't even know who the militant anti-bolters are on this site... but i'd be curious to know what they (and others) think about big cleaning efforts like this. pulling off loose blocks permanently changes the rock and is done to make things safe for climbers, right? all done by the judgement of some individuals.

 

how different is this than bolting a route?

 

just a thought??

 

I've been pushing a lot of rocks, poison oak and dirt off of multiple places last winter spring, and it's an interesting question.

 

What are your thoughts?

[AlpineK]

Index is a pretty good example of this. If the idea is to preserve it in a truly natural state then we should stop trundling and cutting out trees, shrubs, moss, and dirt. In addition we should be making an effort to restore areas where climbers have changed the cliff environment.

 

Personally I like climbing and I figure that doing stuff that will increase the number of people out enjoying the environment is a good thing. If you look at a historic view of the PNW you'll find that the indians living east of the cascades used to set fires in the trees to burn out the new growth but preserve the older big pine trees. The idea was to create an open but still forested environment that would encourage deer and elk to stay in the area and thus improve the hunting.

 

I figure the best thing we as climbers could do is to come up with a consensus on when the best time to do trundling would be and be responsible enough to post notes where climbers park informing them on the trundle zone.

[kevbone]

Beacon.....I have to agree with JH and Bill on this one. As far as JH is concerned. I am going to back him up on this one. I believe (after a couple of years of fighting and not knowing) that the intentions of the BRCA is to get Beacon open all year long. Now, I don’t think this is possible at this current juncture, so I would be in favor of the next best thing. Getting it to open early. Which thanks to JH, and the pre opening cleaning sessions, it has. It all comes down to relationships. Developing them can be difficult. So we have started at the beginning. Showing that the climbers/locals are the stewards of Beacon. We take care of our own. That way when the access fund and the state of WA come down with there new “climber’s mgr plan”, we might have a say in what happens out there.

 

I have heard that the “access fund” has discussed bolting the slab on the SE corner, so all climbers could enjoy it……not just trad climbers……that would be an atrocity…….so we must do what is necessary to stop this.

 

This could potentially be what happens out there.

 

So……trundly and cleaning, is part of limiting our exposure to unnecessary accidents, I believed this is part of the relationships building process.

 

Like Bill said. The RR has all the power…..keeping them happy is the number one priority. How much fun is Beacon if it is closed?

 

Have a great Friday……

 

Bone

 

[ashw_justin]

Rocks loose enough for a human to pull off using their own bare strength are bound to come down naturally in one way or another within a typical human lifespan or two (a geological blink of an eye). You're just making sure it doesn't happen while you're climbing. Much different than bolting because bolts will not just appear naturally.

[lI1|1!]

i always thought it was look down there first and if you don't see anyone go ahead and trundle. if you see somebody down there don't trundle. am i wrong?

[underworld]

Index is a pretty good example of this. If the idea is to preserve it in a truly natural state then we should stop trundling and cutting out trees, shrubs, moss, and dirt. In addition we should be making an effort to restore areas where climbers have changed the cliff environment.

 

Personally I like climbing and I figure that doing stuff that will increase the number of people out enjoying the environment is a good thing. If you look at a historic view of the PNW you'll find that the indians living east of the cascades used to set fires in the trees to burn out the new growth but preserve the older big pine trees. The idea was to create an open but still forested environment that would encourage deer and elk to stay in the area and thus improve the hunting.

 

I figure the best thing we as climbers could do is to come up with a consensus on when the best time to do trundling would be and be responsible enough to post notes where climbers park informing them on the trundle zone.

 

i agree... i think rock climbing in general does not harm the overal picture of nature.

 

it would seem tho, that the purists here that don't ever want to damage the rock would also want to keep even loose rocks where they are. either risk it or climb somewhere else. the argument is made that if you can't climb it safely without bolting, you shouldn't climb it. can the same be said about trundling?

 

maybe the argument is about skill. loose rock isn't as much of a skill thing as a bolted/notbolted face. so trundle to make it safe and don't bolt to keep it bold.

 

hmmmm...but if that is the case then the bolting argument is a chestbeat fest anyway

 

idunno... i'm no purist and i'm no first ascenter. more interested in peoples theories and ideas

 

 

edited to add: i do like trundling as much as the next guy

Edited July 6, 2007 by underworld

[kevbone]

i always thought it was look down there first and if you don't see anyone go ahead and trundle. if you see somebody down there don't trundle. am i wrong?

 

No you are not wrong.....but what if you can’t see to the ground? Like at Beacon. Then you would need to get a look out on the ground......like what occurs at the pre season cleaning party.

 

[kevbone]

 

i agree... i think rock climbing in general does not harm the overal picture of nature.

 

it would seem tho, that the purists here that don't ever want to damage the rock would also want to keep even loose rocks where they are. either risk it or climb somewhere else. the argument is made that if you can't climb it safely without bolting, you shouldn't climb it. can the same be said about trundling?

 

maybe the argument is about skill. loose rock isn't as much of a skill thing as a bolted/notbolted face. so trundle to make it safe and don't bolt to keep it bold.

 

hmmmm...but if that is the case then the bolting argument is a chestbeat fest anyway

 

idunno... i'm no purist and i'm no first ascenter. more interested in peoples theories and ideas

 

 

edited to add: i do like trundling as much as the next guy

 

I think the reason we trundle at Beacon is to limit out exposure to accidents and not to damage the RR tracks……once again…..how fun is it to climb at Beacon when it is closed?

[underworld]

don't know... i've never climbed there.

 

i'm not arguing to stop the cleaning.

 

i just wonder what it is that makes the purists ok with the cleaning. (it has been answered, to an extent)

[kevbone]

don't know... i've never climbed there.

 

 

You should....it is the best climbing in Oregon.....and its in Washington.

[underworld]

and every time i see it mentioned i think of bacon!! mmmmm....bacon....

[G-spotter]

DEATH FROM ABOVE!!! skull skull skull

[ashw_justin]

i agree... i think rock climbing in general does not harm the overall picture of nature.

I don't think that this is strictly true, which is why it is important to be very critical of the impacts of climbing, no matter how insignificant they seem. Assuming that no harm is done now almost guarantees that the impact will become greater. That is just what a rapidly growing human population does to its surroundings, unless there is a conscious effort to preserve.

 

Of course knocking loose rock down creates an impact. However, trundling just slightly accelerates an inevitable natural process. In contrast, bolts will never appear in the rock unless humans put them there. Of course, we ought to be reasonably critical of both in order to limit the overall impact.

[DCramer]

....We take care of our own. That way when the access fund and the state of WA come down with there new “climber’s mgr plan”, we might have a say in what happens out there.

 

I have heard that the “access fund” has discussed bolting the slab on the SE corner, so all climbers could enjoy it……not just trad climbers……that would be an atrocity…….so we must do what is necessary to stop this.

 

Kevbone -

 

I do not believe that the Access Fund ever tried to dictate climbing policy at WA State Parks. The Access Fund did try to increase climber participation during State Parks drive to begin to manage climbing on its property. An umbrella climbing policy was devleoped and individual parks were encouraged to develop area specific climbing management plans. The direct intent of this structure is to ensure that local needs are met. This structure was not the result of efforts by Beacon Rock activists, but rather it was the overwhelming desire of all of the participants during the creation of the umbrella policy.

 

 

As far as the Access Fund wanting to bolt the SE Corner so that sport climbers could climb it, I find that highly improbable. Why don't you send the regional rep an email and ask him directly about it and report back?

[COL._Von_Spanker]

Index is a pretty good example of this. If the idea is to preserve it in a truly natural state then we should stop trundling and cutting out trees, shrubs, moss, and dirt.

 

Index is a rock quarry. It's second to exit 38 as least natural crag in the state.

[lI1|1!]

i always thought it was look down there first and if you don't see anyone go ahead and trundle. if you see somebody down there don't trundle. am i wrong?

 

No you are not wrong.....but what if you can’t see to the ground? Like at Beacon. Then you would need to get a look out on the ground......like what occurs at the pre season cleaning party.

 

i guess i only trundle [tude] in the alpine [/tude] where there's nobody anywheres. shouldn't this thread be titled "route cleaning ethics" as it has nothing to do with trundling ??? . real trundling is a sacred rite that should probably not be confused with what goes on at sport climbing areas .

[kevbone]

i always thought it was look down there first and if you don't see anyone go ahead and trundle. if you see somebody down there don't trundle. am i wrong?

 

No you are not wrong.....but what if you can’t see to the ground? Like at Beacon. Then you would need to get a look out on the ground......like what occurs at the pre season cleaning party.

 

i guess i only trundle [tude] in the alpine [/tude] where there's nobody anywheres. shouldn't this thread be titled "route cleaning ethics" as it has nothing to do with trundling ??? . real trundling is a sacred rite that should probably not be confused with what goes on at sport climbing areas .

 

What sport climbing area are you referring too?

[mattp]

Posters here have focussed on whether removing loose rocks constitutes some kind of unnatural impact and whether it is a safe practice. No matter how you defend our habits, clearly we have a biological and visual impact on the crags where we remove dirt or loose rock and vegetation. And that impact is in fact greater than the impact of even several tiny holes nearby, 3/8" wide by 3" deep - or even the importation of a foreign substance for installation into those holes. We can discuss it 'till we are blue in the face, but I don't think anti-bolting arguments are squarely rooted in environmental impact per se.

 

As to safety, it might make the train tracks safer if climbers remove loose rocks as Joseph suggests, but I bet climber presence there is not overall an increase in safety for the railroad so I don't think we're going to get a good solid answer to that question, either. And crack cleaning or scrubbing? That is purely for our convenience and it brings more climbers which means more risk.

 

I believe there is another, equally important issue: trundling large rocks or even cleaning relatively small ones, crack cleaning, and general scrubbing are rather dramatic activities that LOOK like high impact practices and LEAVE A VISIBLE REMINDER that can be seen from the ground. You may believe there was no bat nesting behind that rock or that moss and lichen are not endangered species, but I'd be willing to venture a guess that, on average, non climbers would be more concerned witnessing the aggressive cleaning of a route than they would the bolting of one.

 

Land managers, property owners, and visiting hikers may be alarmed by our activity even if we think it is in the name of safety or that our recreational pursuit does no greater harm than hiking.

[111]

to get back at the original post. Rocks fall naturally. Bolts do not appear naturally. If the rock is gonna fall eventually because of natural forces, whats wrong with helping it along a few years early? Plus, I like things that go boom!

[philfort]

I agree with lI1|1!. I thought this was going to be some thread about cool alpine trundles.

 

Instead it's a cragging ethics discussion....

[G-spotter]

Chuck Norris doesn't trundle. Rocks just leap off cliffs out of fear as he approaches them.

[billcoe]

Chuck Norris doesn't trundle. Rocks just leap off cliffs out of fear as he approaches them.

 

I'd climb wid him - I'd lead of course.

[mattp]

Yes, but don't bring him out of the box when there are hikers or land managers around.

[Dechristo]

Yes, but don't bring him out of the box when there are hikers or land managers around.

 

What an appropriate and efficient method of disposal with auto-headstone placement.

[Off_White]

Index is a rock quarry. It's second to exit 38 as least natural crag in the state.

 

Colonel! Good to see ya. Word on the street is that you've been a bike racing fool.

 

Actually, I think the crag on my property is in the running for #1 least natural, I think it started out as a dirt hill with a few tiny outcrops. There is also the sandstone quarry in Wilkinson and there's gotta be a couple other quarries in the state.

 

 

back then

 

 

now

 

 

We've trundled a couple large loose things with a 6' prybar and some muscle. They were pretty low down though and not as spectacular as they might have been. One of them did form the best stone bench at the crag.