ktschmid Posted July 29, 2010 Share Posted July 29, 2010 this probably could go in n00b but i thought it might get more attention here: i'm starting to get to the point mountaineering where i'm climbing stuff where i'm either borrowing a tool from someone or wishing i had a tool (to second w along with an axe). so now, naturally, i'm thinking of buying a tool, but low and behold, there are 786597659875 different styles and types! Advice? B4 WHAT ARE YOUR GOALS?... here are my goals, well, more like thoughts. i'm just starting and i imagine i will want to move along to all kinds of climbing, mixed, waterfall, you name it, but my wallet cant even handle thoughts of a "quiver" so id like something really versatile. that beign said, right now i'm concentrating on mountaineering. a lot of stuff ive read says most folks eventually go leashless, but i also want something, that, when i get a second tool, i can leave the axe behind and still plunge into the snow with the shaft. i was thinking that for now i want a single tool that i can use along with an axe, but maybe this is a bad idea, and i should get two tools at once? most importantly i need something on the lower $$$ end. this post is way too long for anyone on here to have actually read this far =) thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMO Posted July 29, 2010 Share Posted July 29, 2010 I would recommend the Petzel Aztarex. Pairs up nicely with a mountaineering axe, is fairly light and most importantly has a removable pinky shelf so you can shaft plant it. I have a pair of them.... I haven't climbed a bunch of water ice with them yet, but so far they seem promising. Mostly I pair the hammer with my piolet in the moderate 'pine. $200 should bag you one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColinB Posted July 29, 2010 Share Posted July 29, 2010 The new Petzl Quarks are really really nice. Sliding trigger lets you plunge away and match on more vertical stuff. A lot of hard alpine routes got put up on the old quarks and they still climb the moderate stuff well. Here's a link: http://petzl.com/us/outdoor/verticality/ice-axes/ice-climbing-tools/quark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoahT Posted July 29, 2010 Share Posted July 29, 2010 IMO, If you think you're going to want to be climbing anything steep in a year or two, just swallow hard and buy a legit tool: quark, fusion, nomic, etc. Otherwise you'll probably find the 200 bucks you spend now on a straighter-shafted, half and half type tool wasted. You can press any of the more agressive tools into service on the mellower routes with an open mind to technique, but you'll have a hard time making an aztar-type tool feel right on the steep stuff. Just my opinion. --N Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fenderfour Posted July 29, 2010 Share Posted July 29, 2010 +1 for what Noah said Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
summitchaserCJB Posted July 29, 2010 Share Posted July 29, 2010 yep. Have to admit Noah has a point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YocumRidge Posted July 29, 2010 Share Posted July 29, 2010 Aztars are amazing tools for both steep WI and alpine stuff: http://cascadeclimbers.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=930098 http://cascadeclimbers.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=967614 I wish I had them but I dont so I am stuck with the two sets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
summitchaserCJB Posted July 29, 2010 Share Posted July 29, 2010 Aztars are sweet. Plus you can make your own pinky grip (like I did). Only problem is that it gets smashed in with repetitive abuse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
summitchaserCJB Posted July 29, 2010 Share Posted July 29, 2010 pm sent about tools ktschmid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktschmid Posted July 29, 2010 Author Share Posted July 29, 2010 (edited) thanks for all the great advice! that new quark looks pretty great but is a bit out of my price range unless i find a used one. does the lack of a pinky rest (or any other type of rest) on the aztar make it hard to go leashless? i don't know if im so crafty as to make a pinky grip. i wonder if the grivel horn would fit on it... NoahT what you say makes sense but i would still wonder about how well some of those (nomic or fusion) could plunge? by open mind to technique do you mean no more plunging? Is there anything you all have used where the pinky rest switches/detaches so as to get out of the way pretty easily, maybe w/out a tool (like is needed on the quark)? Edited July 29, 2010 by ktschmid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
counterfeitfake Posted July 29, 2010 Share Posted July 29, 2010 Find some old cobras or vipers, they're still good tools but lots of people let them go once the new generation came out. The vipers are probably better as they can be made leashless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobra_Commander Posted July 30, 2010 Share Posted July 30, 2010 Take it from this old cobra the original vipers were great but also sucked because of their lack of an attachment hole at the point if you used the pinky rests. There were modifications out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
selkirk Posted July 30, 2010 Share Posted July 30, 2010 Lots of good advice. If you're only buying 1 tool for all around - get a lightly used 1 or 2 year old quark / viper / cobra None are super specialized and all will perform well in just about any environment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoahT Posted July 30, 2010 Share Posted July 30, 2010 NoahT what you say makes sense but i would still wonder about how well some of those (nomic or fusion) could plunge? by open mind to technique do you mean no more plunging? In a word, yes. The more curvy the tool, the harder it's going to be to plunge it. But I'd suggest there's a fairly narrow range of snow conditions where plunging is actually any good for anything other than just stabilizing yourself. I spend a lot of time choked up on my older quarks, pick in, spike in, hand halfway in between. If you need a solid anchor in your average cascade snowpack, a tool dead-manned will do you much better. If you just need a third-leg for stability, really anything will do. I beat my balled up crampons with the side of the tool's head. I guess it depends what you're trying to do. The premise is you want to sacrifice some performance for the sake of your wallet, AND you want to get into waterfall, mixed, winter alpine maybe. IMHO, the benefits of a more aggressive tool on the steeps will outweigh the benefits of a half & half tool on the mellows. Happy searching! --N Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrogdortheBurninator Posted July 30, 2010 Share Posted July 30, 2010 Sounds like something like Grivel Matrix Light w/ slider or Camp Alpax Special (i have these) would suit you well. If you start to enjoy harder ice and mixed routes, you'll probably find some way to feed your addiction with a more tech tool (quark, cobra, nomic, fusion). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coldfinger Posted July 30, 2010 Share Posted July 30, 2010 Well I've got a pair of BD Rage tools I bought 6 years ago and they'll probably be the last pair I buy for a LONG time. Great swing weight, nice curved shaft, nice finger rest (even with a leash gives a natural pivot pint for the tool to swing on). Good shaft for plunging. Will take whatever new picks BD comes up with. Try seeing if you can locate a used pair of those. A lot of the lighter tools (aztar, aztarex, matrix light) don't have the punch you need for hard ice. And a lot of leashless tools are kinda tough to use on the more mundane alpine most of use do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
counterfeitfake Posted July 30, 2010 Share Posted July 30, 2010 Take it from this old cobra the original vipers were great but also sucked because of their lack of an attachment hole at the point if you used the pinky rests. There were modifications out there. This is a good point, I have seen lots of them modded with a little swaged cable loop, which seems like a good easy solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco Posted July 30, 2010 Share Posted July 30, 2010 Take it from this old cobra the original vipers were great but also sucked because of their lack of an attachment hole at the point if you used the pinky rests. There were modifications out there. Any more info on the mod for the older generation of vipers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktschmid Posted August 1, 2010 Author Share Posted August 1, 2010 this is all great info. just so happens i was climbing this weekend w someone who had a (new but not the newest) quark w the pinky rest on, and an older grivel racing wing w a slider (which i recognized due to having looked up trogs great suggestion). they said the grivel was plunging way better and they preferred it for the conditions today. so basically i have to decide between noah's suggested trade-off, sacrifice quality plunging for a tool that i'll be happy w on the really steep stuff, which kinda comes down to how fast do i want to go steep. such choices, thanks for all the great info, still thinking Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon H Posted August 2, 2010 Share Posted August 2, 2010 Bam! BD Viper w/ hammer: http://www.geartrade.com/browse/101/item/143750 BD Viper w/ adze: http://www.geartrade.com/browse/101/item/143749 Or, if you want to go a little lighter weight and get better plunging, go with this... Camp Awax w/ hammer: http://www.geartrade.com/browse/101/item/126251 I've heard good things about the Awax but never used. BD Vipers are great, I did my first WI4 with them (leashless). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yasso1am Posted August 4, 2010 Share Posted August 4, 2010 Check this one out: http://www.camp-usa.com/products/ice-axes/alpax-special-hammer-100402.asp The red grip slides up and the pinky rest folds away. Also comes in an adze model. Additionally Grivel made an Air Tech Evolution with a sliding pinky rest that was pretty awesome. Their new model includes a stupid leash, but find an old one and it will work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurthicks Posted August 5, 2010 Share Posted August 5, 2010 Check this one out: http://www.camp-usa.com/products/ice-axes/alpax-special-hammer-100402.asp The red grip slides up and the pinky rest folds away. Also comes in an adze model. i've got one of those. it's a good tool, but the grip gets dinged up really fast when knocking snow off your crampons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktschmid Posted August 6, 2010 Author Share Posted August 6, 2010 anybody used any of the grivel tools? have any thoughts bout them? i really like trogs idea of a matrix light w a slider Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dane Posted August 20, 2010 Share Posted August 20, 2010 If you think you're going to want to be climbing anything steep in a year or two, just swallow hard and buy a legit tool: Quark, Fusion, Nomic, Cobra, Viper Agreed..the rest will just end up being spare tools if you are smart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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