The Trout Creek Guide

[bugabooed]

I wrote the guidebook to Trout Creek. Since there have been blogs about the area and several comments about the guide, I decided to create an account here in sprayland to respond to some of them and open up room for debate. First, the banter on this site is classic and I can I understand the soapbox people have jumped on about no directions and such. If you’re interested in knowing why people wanted a guide but also wanted things kept a little on the DL, I suggest reading this whole mostrosity. Maybe it will clear some things up or at least give fuel to some more good spray. If you find all the details of stuff like this really, really boring and you want me to get right to the point, TiVo straight to the very last paragraph (in bold).

 

Why aren’t there driving directions in the guidebook? The short answer is because when I was putting the guide together, that was one of the things nearly everyone I talked to about the crag suggested...but that was a while ago and maybe some of their feelings have changed. The original idea was to have info about the area spread through word of mouth, encouraging other people to tell their friends but not selling guides in stores or spraying to the world through other media.

 

“It's either a secret or it's not” was a theme that came up a few times in another blog and a couple people really seem upset over the idea that while Trout Creek isn't a secret it seems to have secretive qualities. It's hard for some folks to wrap their minds around rational that is neither black nor white. It was never about being a secret but rather letting the momentum build on its own, with a couple hurdles but mostly open doors to finding and using the area. It was a balancing act, especially in terms of writing a guidebook, that I figured some people wouldn't get. I didn't think I would find myself actually agreeing with some of their points.

 

Currently, if someone searches for Trout Creek Climbing online, boom the guide pops up. The fact that people still have to ask around or explore a little on their own to actually get to the trailhead is terribly contrived to some in the climbing world. And if people are purchasing a guidebook, maybe those ranting about it have a good point. That's why forums like this are cool, they let voices be heard and sometimes what they have to say can change things. Granted, the way they are said tends to be the problem with a lot of these types of forums because people grow really big muscles and really quick attitudes behind the protection of cyberville. But from what I can tell its still a good way to talk about these things.

 

Years before there was any sort of guide to Trout Creek and before I started replacing the old anchors left behind from the 80’s, I talked to as many of "the old guard" as I could (Rich, Sandahl, Watts, Ramsey) to see what they thought about a renewed interested in the crag. They all figured replacing the old bolts was a good idea if I wanted to climb there and they were encouraging about the crag’s development, which at that time, was only a few of us. As word spread about the quality of the climbing more people started showing up and a problem surfaced right away. Some of the established routes that went to the top without anchors were “put up” again with bolts added below the rim by unknowing climbers. None of the bolts got chopped but people agreed that a guide would make good sense so that sort of thing would stop happening. Some of the climbers were also really guarded about the quiet nature (and the access issues) of the crag. The guide was a way to let those concerns get out.

 

So, we decided to keep it word of mouth and I wrote a rough guide originally containing about 20 routes and gave copies to everybody I knew who had been up there. There was no need for directions because anyone who had the guide had it handed to them by someone who already knew about it. We all figured that the word would spread on its own (and it has) and there was no good reason to accelerate the process. In 2006, I updated the guide and made it available online instead of trying to burn discs and hand them out to people. That winter, I contacted everyone I knew who had spent time up there and told them to spread the word about a free download available for a week. I also purchased printed copies (they are not free for me either) for about a dozen people who had helped in the recent development. At that point, I considered including exact driving directions but again almost everyone I talked to thought it would be better if people still had to sniff around a bit to get there. Granted they already knew how to get there. I guess we figured it would be a interesting, relatively easy process…especially when the guide speaks to “The stretch of water between Warm Springs and Trout Creek”, eating in Madras, the bumpy road to the campground, etc.

 

Since then, there has been a bunch of new route activity, an article in Climbing magazine and more people out there having a look. At the beginning of 2008 I updated the guide and again made it available as a free download, this time for a month. Guides for the public are now a whopping $5 to download and I only get part of that, and actually less for hard copies. Last year the money that came in from guide sales bought a few anchors and the entire purchase price of a keg and some plastic cups for the fall party. Hopefully this year it will pay for another keg, maybe even some chips.

 

Yep, the word is out. Finding the area was never hard with a little digging and now it is a non-issue with directions posted on this site (edit: they have now been removed). Some people might have it right that if someone's buying a guidebook, they sure as hell should be given driving directions. It’s possible to change the pdf for the guide at any time. I have to say that I'm seeing things differently now that the crag has received so much attention...but personally I'm still a bit torn. From the beginning, this has been as much a group process as possible so your comments here and the input from other people will decide.

 

Cheers.

 

Edited February 19, 2008 by bugabooed

[dan_forester]

nothing like getting the story from the horse's mouth. thanks for your work putting the guidebook together; I saw a copy about a year ago & thought it looked good.

 

check your PM's.

[billcoe]

Thank you Jeff, I knew all that already, maybe everyone else did as well although it's nice to hear again, but there are some other issues as well which dovetail nicely. I'll PM (send a private message to) you.

[eldiente]

Thanks for the post Jeff. Everyone appreciates your hard work up there and the guidebook is helpful for finding some of the more obscure lines. I would like to see the directions not published in the guidebook.

 

The crag isn't hard to find and word of mouth seems to do just fine for everyone. I have yet to meet anyway that has climbed there that has any problem finding the place. Actually almost everyone has a good story about how they found TC, and who took them up there for the first time. It is a unique experience to find such a great crag under on your own without the usual "turn right after 50 feet and look for a sign" that you get at most crags.

 

What does everyone else think? Bill, if we get a consensus on this issues, would you be willing to delete your post with the directions?

 

-Nate

 

 

 

 

Edited February 13, 2008 by eldiente

[billcoe]

Thanks for the post Jeff. Everyone appreciates your hard work up there and the guidebook is helpful for finding some of the more obscure lines. I would like to see the directions not published in the guidebook.

 

The crag isn't hard to find an word of mouth seems to do just fine for everyone. I have yet to meet anyway that has climbed there that has any problem finding the place. Actually almost everyone has a good story about how they found TR, and who took them up there for the first time. It is a unique experience to find such a great crag under on your own without the usual "turn right after 50 feet and look for a sign" that you get at most crags.

 

What does everyone else think? Bill, if we get a consensus on this issues, would you be willing to delete your post with the directions?

 

-Nate

 

 

 

.....if we get a consensus.......

 

You bet Nate, if its consensus!

 

I'm going skiing soon, I'll check in later.

[tradclimbguy]

Who cares if the directions are posted??? Geez, why don't we set this up through one of those REI vacations for you Bill. We can carry your gear, drive you there and put up the lines too.

 

Try this, search on Google for "Trout Creek, madras". The first couple hits tell you how to get to the campground. One of the fishing sites even shows a picture of the crag!

Finding the crag once you are in the campground isn't rocket science. I personally like not having every detail spelled out for me.

 

[eldiente]

Who cares if the directions are posted??? Geez, why don't we set this up through one of those REI vacations for you Bill.

 

Learn to crack climb for $999 a day.

[billcoe]

Who cares if the directions are posted??? Geez, why don't we set this up through one of those REI vacations for you Bill. We can carry your gear, drive you there and put up the lines too.

 

Nate cares. Promise to carry the gear?

[marcus]

Thanks Jeff for all the hard work that you and everyone else obviously put into developing this awesome place, and your guidebook is an essential resource for the area - so hard to gauge the difficulty of many of those lines from the base without it.

 

My two cents? I think that the approach, grades, and nature of the climbing will always naturally limit the crowds at TC. And a guidebook without comprehensive directions is perhaps an incomplete resource. As most regional folks who are truly interested have already been there, it might really just open up the area to folks road-tripping and looking for a nearby Smith alternative. Not all of these folks are in with the 'cool kids' and might not have access to the info otherwise.

 

People in other climbing communities sometimes joke about us here in the PNW...how we don't have much rock, yet hoard it all like fool's gold. With a guidebook, route development and now magazine articles, Trout Creek will certainly continue to grow in popularity regardless. Perhaps now it is more a matter of how many 1000's of people will get to say that they are in the 'cool kid's club' before it is ultimately disbanded.

 

I was always fine with TC being under the radar before, and I applaud your careful efforts now to limit impact, respect private property rights and shape issues around access and development. Best luck to you. And just for the record: I didn't tell anyone!!!

 

 

[powderhound]

Having a guide book for and area with no directions is like telling a kid that he gets to pass out out candy on Halloween to all the neighbor kids but not actually collect any himself, or get to put the sweet costume of batman on.

[motomagik]

The crag isn't hard to find and word of mouth seems to do just fine for everyone. It is a unique experience to find such a great crag under on your own without the usual "turn right after 50 feet and look for a sign" that you get at most crags.

 

I think that Trout is unique, and the fact that it isn't widely broadcast with baby step-by-baby step directions is a large part of what makes it that way. I'm not understanding the supposed offense of describing the routes online but not listing directions. We're not exactly talking about a Falcon guide here. I think Trout is a special case, and I don't see any harm in trying to keep it that way. If you want to climb there, put your boots on, your rack on your back and hike around for a bit like everyone else did, it's really not that hard.

[111]

doh!

Edited February 13, 2008 by 111

[powderhound]

The crag isn't hard to find and word of mouth seems to do just fine for everyone. It is a unique experience to find such a great crag under on your own without the usual "turn right after 50 feet and look for a sign" that you get at most crags.

 

First I can think of only a handful of climbing areas in the United States that have signs pointing you to the direction of the climbs. Second, now that trout is as known as just about any other place in oregon that peopel try and keep on the DL, like Moolack, Ozone, and trout, the idea that someone is actually going to go trapping along the banks of the deshutes looking for this crag is dumb. No one is going to do that.

 

Trout is unique becasue of the setting, the quality of the routes, the type of climbers it brings to climb there, not how you found it.

Edited February 13, 2008 by powderhound

[MATT_B]

Directions or not, it doesn't really matter to me. Could I sugest you at least give an explination of why there are not specific directs in the guide. Something like what you wrote above. Sounds like it's not too hard to find but an outsider that isn't in the know may be a little ticked when they don't find directions as a typical guide would have. Personally I think I'll go with the tradition and try to find it on my own.

[billcoe]

Pulled Trout Creek directions.

 

I'd like to thank everyone for being so civil. I got like 6 PM's on this. There were 3 that supported leaving them, 2 that were like "sure, OK, fine, whatever it doesn't matter either way", and 1 that said probably shouldn't post them.

 

The deciding factor was just talking it over with Ujhan as we rode up to put some tracks in the snow. He wouldn't commit one way or the other, and the discussion basically dissected the entire issue both ways to Sunday. The place is nice just the way it is. I suspect that the climbing artical will see folks showing up on road trips, hopefully, as there are 2 gov't agencies and private folks leasing as well there, any crowding which might occur gets handled OK. Risking the area going through a Gov't intervention is more than I want to be a part of even if it's a 1% possibility. If someone else chooses to put them online, I'll say "whatever", it's all good either way.

 

ps, the mt is in prime shape right now! Better than my knee anyway!

[chucK]

I think it's ridiculous that you are selling a guide that doesn't tell people how to get to the cliff. Granted it's only $5, but $5 is too much for something useless (to one not in the know).

 

From your story above it sounds like this guidebook project started off as something to pass around to friends. But now that you are advertising it on a web page and in Climbing you should definitely clearly state in the description on the web page that this guide does not contain directions to the cliff. Otherwise, you're potentially ripping people off.

[bugabooed]

Useless is a pretty harsh word there chucK and I do tell people how to get to the cliff, just not the parking lot ;-) but I understand where you're coming from, especially if people are paying for it. One important fact here is that I didn't write the article in Climbing or ask for it to be written. Still, we all have to adjust to the way things play out and that's why I started this thread. Keep in mind chucK, a bunch of people, some of them listed above, disagree with you about what's ridiculous.

 

Thanks Snaileye, that makes good sense. And thanks to everyone else that chimed in too, you included chucK. As of right now, the guidebook descriptions which pop up and remain up until purchases are made, all clearly state that the driving directions are not mapped out in the text of the guides: Inside you'll find all the route activity through 2/08. What you will not find (at least at this point) is exact driving directions to the trailhead. Although if you got here, you can surely get there with a little searching. Since avoiding DRIVING DIRECTIONS flies in the face of the traditional guidebook, people deserve to know. To some this will make the guide a useless purchase, to others it will produce one in a line of many Trout Creek adventures. If you are curious as to why we went this route, check out the link below and, if you want, add your own two cents: http://cascadeclimbers.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/772146#Post772146

 

 

Edited February 14, 2008 by bugabooed

[chucK]

[eldiente]

As of right now, the guidebook descriptions which pop up and remain up until purchases are made, all clearly state that the driving directions are not mapped out in the text of the guides: Inside you'll find all the route activity through 2/08. What you will not find (at least at this point) is exact driving directions to the trailhead. Although if you got here, you can surely get there with a little searching. Since avoiding DRIVING DIRECTIONS flies in the face of the traditional guidebook, people deserve to know. To some this will make the guide a useless purchase, to others it will produce one in a line of many Trout Creek adventures. If you are curious as to why we went this route, check out the link below and, if you want, add your own two cents: http://cascadeclimbers.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/772146#Post772146

 

 

Sounds good.

[jlag]

You don't have to be "in the know" to find Trout Creek. There's a huge fucking sign off the HWY that says Trout Creek Recreational Area. From there you could be clueless and still find the rimrock above the river. If you have any inclination to climb cracks you'd head right to the climbing area from the campground parking area. With the user trail it's as obvious as it can be.

 

Keep it as it is, the guidebook does it's job.

 

JL

[chucK]

Dude! You've just posted direction to the crag.

 

The Trout Creekers are going to be pissed!

 

You don't have to be "in the know" to find Trout Creek. There's a huge fucking sign off the HWY that says Trout Creek Recreational Area. From there you could be clueless and still find the rimrock above the river. If you have any inclination to climb cracks you'd head right to the climbing area from the campground parking area. With the user trail it's as obvious as it can be.

[JosephH]

It would seem if there were ever a place where people could avail themselves of the chance to learn to map their abilities to lines by sight alone this would be the place. I've always been mildly amused and a bit confused as to the use of guide books in climbing. By and large they typcially contribute to a considerable 'dumbing down' of climbers without ever capturing what is interesting about the climbs.

 

I can figure out how hard and what gear, what I really always want to know is the 'story' of the first ascent, the people, and the name - tell me the story of seeing and putting the line up. That sort of thing is probably less a requirement in a land of side-by-side splitters, but still - a name, rating, and beta devoid of that context is dry by any measure.

 

Climbers would be so much better off simply learning how to figure this stuff for themselves by eyeballing lines when they come upon them. Guidebooks tend to be the sort of crutch that keeps on disabling rather than enabling. With rare exceptions, when I do look at one it's usually only to figure out where a crag is or after a climb out of curiosity to see what was said about it.

[AvlNC]

"..any crowding which might occur gets handled OK. Risking the area going through a Gov't intervention is more than I want to be a part of even if it's a 1% possibility"

 

This seems at odds with selling a guide online, it might have started out for your friends and the end result is that it is available (thankfully, by the way) for anyone with even a little iniative to find. I personally think it is great there is the guide...I am not convinced putting directions in the guide would increase traffic more than just having a guide out to begin with. I mean is your intent just to make a meager couple of bucks (doubtful), to truly inform and advertise an area you are excited about (assumingly), or just highlight you and friends that matter are in the know (hope not, there is already too too much elitism in climbing)?

[Winter]

i thought this crag was just east of renton?

[bugabooed]

Good points, I like to think your assumptions are pretty much right. I'm one of many people super psyched on the place and love sharing it with those who dig this style of climbing. Bottom line, the climbing is really good and everyone who visits is blown away by the scenery. Plus, once the word got out, it seemed like the right thing to have the guide available to anyone who looked for it. I agree with you that directions are not going to substantially increase numbers at the crag, especially compared to an article in Climbing. The issue was/is more about whether there is an obligation to post them in a guidebook or at least let people know they are not included.

 

Early on, we figured access issues like the gov't intervention you mentioned were huge reasons to keep things quiet and frankly it was awesome being the only ones up at the cliff. We snuck around and when we saw fisherman in the parking lot we claimed we were hikers or picnicers or fellow fishermen, then some other people joined us in our sneaking around until there were quite a few of us. More or less, we agreed with your logic and shared info very sparingly:

 

"Risking the area going through a Gov't intervention is more than I want to be a part of even if it's a 1% possibility. This seems at odds with selling a guide online"

 

I eventually came to realize that that attitude, except when we as climbers truly are sneaking around in places we have no legal right to be, is backward thinking. It was pointed out by several people, including the BLM, that exposure from a guidebook or even that Climbing article could give us climbers a stronger voice as a user group, should access really become an issue. That is, of course, if we don't give the BLM reason to suggest we're making a negative impact on the land or other user groups-people hunting, grazing livestock, etc. It's far from an even relationship between usage, impact and access when we're dealing with public land.

 

The land is BLM but access is deeded to the ranch above. The rancher is totally cool with us being there so long as we don't drive accross his farm up top...but he currently has the ranch for sale (251 acres for 1.3 million or you can get the house all the farm equipment and the BLM-lease for around 6.5 mil, if anybody's interested) and a different owner could be a different attitude. Even if we have the legal upper-hand, it is a relationship we need to be considerate of.