Teachers Strike

[ivan]

are most graduates of public schools generally content w/ their lives? speaking just from what i've seen, yeah, actually. i certainly haven't kept tabs on all my flown chickens over 20 years, but those that i have crossed passed w/ post-graduation have generally been pretty happy w/ their lives (and those that haven't usually are quick to own their failures - "you tried man...")

 

despite disowning the straw man, you sure sound like you fancy him - what "results" do you use to judge the fire-fighter, the medic, the soldier? what supervisor doesn't pass the buck on his own short-comings to his sub-ordinates? judgement by peers? holy shit, so unions SHOULD judge their members?

[olyclimber]

It seems that the implied objection to teachers' salaries is that they've got it too good. We all remember those carefree days of summer vacation, and some resent the perception that teachers get to spend ten weeks doing jack while getting paid a fair wage. And that comes out of our stolen tax money. The horror.

 

Add to that the fact that kids fail to measure up to the high standards we all grew up with, and it appears that teachers aren't even doing a very good job while taking home all of those sweet tax dollars. Never mind that the raw materials; kids with many challenges that aren't their fault (Have you looked at the public school demographics lately?), mainstreaming of learning challenged children, unmanageably large classes, etc, and it's nary impossible for even great teachers to consistently meet performance goals.

 

It's a tough job with a high burn out rate, and begrudging someone making a pretty good living at it is petty and selfish. Something that hasn't been mentioned yet; consider the value that society derives from the collective effort of our teachers. Beat them down, make it a less attractive profession, lower the quality of those who stick with it, degrade public school education, and see how well plays out in terms of social and economic health of the nation. Jeez.

 

Thats what I'm saying too. Why are we negging on teachers pay and complaining about one day of protest (which doesn't result in any extra pay and cuts into summer time off) when money is literally being shit in every direction on so many other disasters that no one seems to give a shit about? Well actually people do give a shit about them, but the OP of this thread doesn't apparently.

 

like this kind of shit:

 

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/feb/08/usa.iraq1

 

I know we all have our own pet outrage, depending on our political bent. But honestly I don't see how teachers striking for one day really fits into how shits fucked. How does that become the focus of conversation other than as a distraction from more important things.

 

 

[Fairweather]

The states have let liabilities build up. NJ has some of the highest if not THE highest taxes in the US. The larger problem has been promising what cannot be delivered. I noticed you failed to mention the chart on pg 3 that indicates the liabilities of each state. WA, with one of the smallest, has ONLY a pension liability of $3,200 per household. The only two solutions I hear from the left is 1) it's not a problem, or 2) raise taxes. The former is more of the same, the latter not feasible. You cannot tax your way out of these huge liabilities. No way. No how. Taxing the rich 50% will not do it.

 

http://cascadeclimbers.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/ubb/newreply/Board/21/Number/1007354/what/showflat/fpart/1/q/1

 

 

[olyclimber]

[video:youtube]wW6v_Ag4_Nw

[olyclimber]

http://i.imgur.com/3oRUSgv.gifv

[Crux]

leave it to a lib to come up with a straw-man.

 

what makes this come off like something out of Idiocracy? Like out the toilet?

 

Works for his mom, who judges him on a combination of results.

[ivan]

hey, there's other things teachers can do to combat dwindling pay instead of striking!

 

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/05/16/meth-lab-found-inside-home-north-carolina-elementary-school-teacher/?intcmp=latestnews

 

my first year teaching was in tar-heel land - was the worst in the nation for teacher pay at the time (wow, they've come up to #47 now) - flew away after one year...

[Fairweather]

Hey, it worked for Walter White...

[Peter_Puget]

Skoolled! 8D

 

Umm yea......

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic

[Peter_Puget]

 

Assuming your definitions are correct you are rally creating a disctinction without a difference. The "Republicans" seem to be consistently outvoted by the "Democrats." THe union doesn't reflect their views and they are often compelled by law to help fund the union.

not true, for several reasons:

 

1. no one has to be part of the union if they don't want to, they can "opt out" - my district has several "agency fee payers" who pay no dues, but do have to pay a yearly fee for the contract negotiation we do on their behalf. Ah but agency fees are mandated and they are paid to the union. So they are compelled by law to support the union.

 

2.most of what a local union does is non-political (at least as it is commonly understood) - we negotiate a contract - we oversee the implementation of the contract - we deal with issues between members and management - we run a scholarship program for kids - we have social events - we put on professional trainings Not sure what your who this relates to my claim

 

3. the political part of the union (called WEA-PAC) is an "opt in" situation - this is the part that hires lobbyists, puts out political ads, interviews candidates for elections, and issues recommendations to voters on how to vote - folks who don't to be in the union at all don't pay for the politics part - members who don't want to be involved politically don't pay - just members who choose to be involved are part of WEA-PAC (about 75% of my 400 members) Just wondering if the costs associated with the strike are considered non-political. Again this doesnt refute my claim

 

 

The idea that agency fees doesnt help support political activities is absurd. Anything supporting more than the marginl costs supports other activites. Further in the politicized enviroment in which we pooperate (ie one where union support of elected officials buys their freedom to break laws) the political is all pervasive.

 

By the way check out the Davenport case for grins. Here's a link. Note how fast thelaws change when you, like the WEA, have the $$$$:

http://washingtonstatewire.com/blog/dues-and-donts-wea-pays-1-7-million-in-states-biggest-campaign-violation-case/

Edited May 19, 2015 by Peter_Puget

[Peter_Puget]

out of curiosity, those who are hot for "supply and demand" pay for public school teachers and evaluations based on kids test scores, how do you want other public servants to be judged? should cops be judged on how many tickets they write? how often the tickets they do write get paid? should fire-fighters be paid by how many fires they put out? do conservatives really want irs agents to be fired if they don't catch a certain # of tax-cheats?

 

my point is that public servants aren't exactly pumping out widgets - they're not owned by scrooge mcduck for his personal financial well-being - our task is a rather broad, grand and often nebulous one: to shepherd every kid the community throws into the hopper into adulthood with hopefully a chance at long-term happiness in life

 

Was this a response to my use of “supply & demand”? If so I was suggesting that if there was an unmet demand for teachers (IE A SIGNIFICANT AMOUNTOF VACANIES) then we would have as strong case for districts paying under market. Of course you may argue that the wage is below the level required for quality teachers. In that case I wonder why the union hasn’t been actively pointing this out and trying to help identify the bad teachers. I wasnt making this arguement.

 

I have heard the number of substitutes has been going down

 

[olyclimber]

OH YEAH? WELL UR AN IDIOT!!!!!

[olyclimber]

that was neither fulfilling nor enjoyable.

[Crux]

[ivan]

 

 

The idea that agency fees doesnt help support political activities is absurd. Anything supporting more than the marginl costs supports other activites. Further in the politicized enviroment in which we pooperate (ie one where union support of elected officials buys their freedom to break laws) the political is all pervasive.

 

again, that's simply wrong - agency shop fees go to my local union (only 400 members) b/c we're the one that actually negotiate the contract and work to ensure it's followed

 

our local union's budget doesn't cover anything traditionally considered political - it's doesn't pay for political advertising, contribute to political campaigns, tell the membership how to vote, etc. local members who want to opt-in to that action have to join WEA-PAC.

[dberdinka]

I can't read this whole thing so I'm just going to rant.

 

Teachers now have a half-day every week to plan and a full Friday off every month as well. Their contracted for a 180 days a year and the salary max's out at ~70k for a Master+CE. Add in job security and excellent benefits. Class size in my kids school apparently averages 21, though one of my daughters has 26 in her class.

 

The optics of these half days and such are that teachers just don't get a lot of sympathy from the community or at least not as much as they seem to expect. You constantly hear how teachers work long days on their "own" time, they don't seem to realize that many professionals work way more than 40 hours a week as well.

 

Most private sector folks work ~245 days a year. If a teacher did that their salary would roughly be $100k. 70k *(245/180). Not bad, not bad at all and certainly above the average salary of a masters in the private sector. Throw in the fact you get 10 f%$kin weeks off every summer and it's a lot of bitchin about nothing.

 

 

 

[KaskadskyjKozak]

I can't read this whole thing so I'm just going to rant.

 

Teachers now have a half-day every week to plan and a full Friday off every month as well. Their contracted for a 180 days a year and the salary max's out at ~70k for a Master+CE. Add in job security and excellent benefits. Class size in my kids school apparently averages 21, though one of my daughters has 26 in her class.

 

The optics of these half days and such are that teachers just don't get a lot of sympathy from the community or at least not as much as they seem to expect. You constantly hear how teachers work long days on their "own" time, they don't seem to realize that many professionals work way more than 40 hours a week as well.

 

Most private sector folks work ~245 days a year. If a teacher did that their salary would roughly be $100k. 70k *(245/180). Not bad, not bad at all and certainly above the average salary of a masters in the private sector. Throw in the fact you get 10 f%$kin weeks off every summer and it's a lot of bitchin about nothing.

 

 

 

I'd be all for having school increase to 245 days a year, and paying teachers proportionally for that (and pay the higher taxes required to fund that). Our kids are falling behind other countries that don't take off summers from K-12 education.

 

I wonder how the unions would like that idea?

 

[genepires]

http://www.k12.wa.us/safs/PUB/PER/SalAllocSchedule.pdf

 

not quite $70K but the max is $64K after 16 years of teaching and a masters with 90+ extra credits or 16 years and a PhD. Is $100K reasonable for someone with a PhD with 16 years of prior experience in the private world?

 

your kids school may not be the norm in regards to those half days for work. My kids school gets one hour every friday early release.

 

those benefits are getting picked at too. there is a long list of contract take aways.

 

you can't equate their pay to a full 12 months and then use the summer vacation as a argument point in the same paragraph. compare apples to apples.

 

Though you did forget to add in the paid government holidays, spring and winter break into your free time calc.

 

[genepires]

I'd be all for having school increase to 245 days a year, and paying teachers proportionally for that (and pay the higher taxes required to fund that). Our kids are falling behind other countries that don't take off summers from K-12 education.

 

I wonder how the unions would like that idea?

 

Actually, the summers are a time that teachers use to get those extra credits and higher degrees that are needed to make living wage. So if they were to work all year, when would they be able to do the state required professional development? (which they are not paid to do) sneak it in during the recess periods?

[KaskadskyjKozak]

I'd be all for having school increase to 245 days a year, and paying teachers proportionally for that (and pay the higher taxes required to fund that). Our kids are falling behind other countries that don't take off summers from K-12 education.

 

I wonder how the unions would like that idea?

 

Actually, the summers are a time that teachers use to get those extra credits and higher degrees that are needed to make living wage. So if they were to work all year, when would they be able to do the state required professional development? (which they are not paid to do) sneak it in during the recess periods?

 

I'm saying pay them commensurately. Read above. If they make 70K, then pay them 85 or 90K or whatever the increase amounts to.

 

Our kids are what matter, right? And they are losing out to other countries on classroom time - every year.

[Fairweather]

I can't read this whole thing so I'm just going to rant.

 

Teachers now have a half-day every week to plan and a full Friday off every month as well. Their contracted for a 180 days a year and the salary max's out at ~70k for a Master+CE. Add in job security and excellent benefits. Class size in my kids school apparently averages 21, though one of my daughters has 26 in her class.

 

The optics of these half days and such are that teachers just don't get a lot of sympathy from the community or at least not as much as they seem to expect. You constantly hear how teachers work long days on their "own" time, they don't seem to realize that many professionals work way more than 40 hours a week as well.

 

Most private sector folks work ~245 days a year. If a teacher did that their salary would roughly be $100k. 70k *(245/180). Not bad, not bad at all and certainly above the average salary of a masters in the private sector. Throw in the fact you get 10 f%$kin weeks off every summer and it's a lot of bitchin about nothing.

 

 

 

[ivan]

 

I'd be all for having school increase to 245 days a year, and paying teachers proportionally for that (and pay the higher taxes required to fund that). Our kids are falling behind other countries that don't take off summers from K-12 education.

 

I wonder how the unions would like that idea?

i'm just one union guy, but a year-round schedule sounds pretty cool - a lot more money (i'm expecting the extra 65 days aren't being expected for free? ) - the typical approach, as i understand this kind schedule, still has 2 weeks or so breaks at the end of each cycle, which as a climber means good long road-trips at times of the year that currently are tough to get out during

 

that you assume the attitudes of a union member on this subject shows you don't much understand the thing you're judging so well

[Fairweather]

Actually, the summers are a time that teachers use to get those extra credits and higher degrees that are needed to make living wage. So if they were to work all year, when would they be able to do the state required professional development? (which they are not paid to do) sneak it in during the recess periods?

 

After work, home at 6pm, staying up until 1am, driving, lectures, library time, driving, reading, writing, and getting back up for work at 6am--like those of us in the private sector do. Like I did. Again, why do teachers think they are above the rest of us? It's truly an insulated world they have created for themselves.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

I can't read this whole thing so I'm just going to rant.

 

Teachers now have a half-day every week to plan and a full Friday off every month as well. Their contracted for a 180 days a year and the salary max's out at ~70k for a Master+CE. Add in job security and excellent benefits. Class size in my kids school apparently averages 21, though one of my daughters has 26 in her class.

 

The optics of these half days and such are that teachers just don't get a lot of sympathy from the community or at least not as much as they seem to expect. You constantly hear how teachers work long days on their "own" time, they don't seem to realize that many professionals work way more than 40 hours a week as well.

 

Most private sector folks work ~245 days a year. If a teacher did that their salary would roughly be $100k. 70k *(245/180). Not bad, not bad at all and certainly above the average salary of a masters in the private sector. Throw in the fact you get 10 f%$kin weeks off every summer and it's a lot of bitchin about nothing.

 

 

 

I'd be all for having school increase to 245 days a year, and paying teachers proportionally for that (and pay the higher taxes required to fund that). Our kids are falling behind other countries that don't take off summers from K-12 education.

 

I wonder how the unions would like that idea?

i'm just one union guy, but a year-round schedule sounds pretty cool - a lot more money (i'm expecting the extra 65 days aren't being expected for free? ) - the typical approach, as i understand this kind schedule, still has 2 weeks or so breaks at the end of each cycle, which as a climber means good long road-trips at times of the year that currently are tough to get out during

 

that you assume the attitudes of a union member on this subject shows you don't much understand the thing you're judging so well

 

this has come up many times over the years. teachers unions oppose it vociferously.

 

a three-month break to let the kids go help with the harvest is such a ridiculous anachronism. I would alternatively favor kids doing some form of hard labor every summer (or some other volunteer or life-enriching activity)

 

and yes, you would get paid for the 65 extra days - proportionally higher. and yes, there would be a 2 week break here and there.

 

 

[Buckaroo]

Was this a response to my use of “supply & demand”? If so I was suggesting that if there was an unmet demand for teachers (IE A SIGNIFICANT AMOUNTOF VACANIES) then we would have as strong case for districts paying under market. .....

 

didn't you mean OVER market?