Obama and his Lying Issues

[glassgowkiss]

yup, and them russians never had a fucking insane ruler equiped w/ nukes, or the french, or us for that matter...

 

I trust Kruschev, Reagan, or Mitterand with a nuclear arsenal any day over Ahmadinejad or his successor.

The military doctrine starting from the 50's in the entire Warsaw pact was small nuclear strikes followed by armored divisions within 4 hours. So much for your trust to russians.

 

The doctrine you speak of was limited to Europe--more specifically, the Fulda Gap. Little to do with the intercontinental MAD strategy that saw nuclear-armed ships, aircraft, and submarines with specific target lists on patrol 24/7/365 for nearly fifty years.

 

I still believe that we were safer back in the days when the nukes were held exclusively by the US, USSR. We kept them in check; they kept us in check. And we both cared enough about the collective fate of our citizens to avoid a nuclear catastrophe. I'm not sure this is true for the kooks running Iran.

that is a load of shit. russians do not care about their own people, never did, never will. they are savages plain and simple, and they always carried out their policies that way. They go from one fucked dictatorship to another. trusting Kruschev?- same guy who was pounding his shoe in the UN? Maybe the only reason soviets never attacked is because of work of Kuklinski?

I am not defending current rulers of Persia, but they are nothing in comparison to mass murderers from russia. your statement is just historical revisionism at it's best.

[olyclimber]

Wow this is great dialogue. I'm glad the Internet was invented.

[olyclimber]

And we all know who did that.

[ivan]

few people realize the internetz is really just a bunch of pipes n' tubes

[olyclimber]

Thanks Alaska for your contribution!

[G-spotter]

Pretty sure it was Jerry Garcia who invented the pipe.

[olyclimber]

I'm grateful for Cherry Garcia.

[Fairweather]

that is a load of shit. russians do not care about their own people, never did, never will. they are savages plain and simple, and they always carried out their policies that way. They go from one fucked dictatorship to another. trusting Kruschev?- same guy who was pounding his shoe in the UN? Maybe the only reason soviets never attacked is because of work of Kuklinski?

I am not defending current rulers of Persia, but they are nothing in comparison to mass murderers from russia. your statement is just historical revisionism at it's best.

 

You're right, I could have chosen my words better. Not trying to defend the Soviet communist dictators in any way--bastards all. Especially Stalin. But I certainly don't think the people of the former USSR are or were "savages". Just people trying to get through life like the rest of us. The point I was trying to make was that Soviet leaders cared about their own physical survival in some manner. And since they weren't big professors of any sort of afterlife, it stands to reason they wanted to extend their lives as long as possible. Iran's leaders--including the now-gone Ahmadinejad--have professed a belief that their rewards lie in some sort of glorious afterlife. They have also stated publicly that Israel should be wiped off the map. They cannot be trusted with nukes, and I hope that BeBe takes out their program before it's too late. It's hard for me to fathom the darkness that steers someone like Ivan into moral equivalency arguments. Just plain dumb.

[Fairweather]

next time i'm at the national archives, i'll be sure to bust into the display case and edit tj's magnum opus for you then

 

 

Jefferson's larger hypocrisy goes a long, long way toward esssplaining the modern american liberal psychosis.

so, just to get you on the record here then, you admit the entire foundational american ideal of equality for all is bullshit? i'm fine w/ talking to cynical assholes, so long as the cards sit square upon the table. your country, right or wrong, and you and yours more deserving within that country. i'm sure that's a grand place to occupy.

 

the nice thing about being an atheist is not having to defend angels - ole'tj, a man i much enjoy discussing on and who's school i spent many of the best days of my life, was no god, but a politician, the very meanest sort of demi-god - he had some sublime ideas, good guiding-rods as we ramble on into the future - plenty of flaws to pick from too - obama could literally be his son.

 

the ideal is the issue though. you either believe in the ideal of equality, that noble goal which does in fact fly in spite of nature's fashion, or you shut the fuck up when the "star spangled banner" gets played, see?

 

WTF are you babbling on about? Not saying I dislike Jefferson or his big ideas. In fact, he's on my very short list of unpigeonholeables like Orwell or Teddy or Ed Abbey. But the fact that folks of a certain political persuasion (yours) like to cherry pick Jefferson amuses me to no end. For example, his arguably tacit, after-the-fact support of Shay's Rebellion is probably something you don't like to bother with. That whole tree of liberty refreshed with the blood of tyrants from time to time stuff, ya know.

Edited November 27, 2013 by Fairweather

[olyclimber]

thanks so we all good now?

[ivan]

i'm quite certain jefferson wouldn't want nigras, injuns or saracens to have thermo-nuclear weapons

[ivan]

WTF are you babbling on about? Not saying I dislike Jefferson or his big ideas.

i was assuming that, like KK, you are okay w/ the idea that some nations, like some people, are fundamentally better/more enlightened/more worthy/less crazy/etc than others - if so, that IS in conflict w/ a basic jeffersonian concept (which admittedly, he was hardly the best messenger for )

[KaskadskyjKozak]

that is a load of shit. russians do not care about their own people, never did, never will. they are savages plain and simple, and they always carried out their policies that way. They go from one fucked dictatorship to another. trusting Kruschev?- same guy who was pounding his shoe in the UN? Maybe the only reason soviets never attacked is because of work of Kuklinski?

I am not defending current rulers of Persia, but they are nothing in comparison to mass murderers from russia. your statement is just historical revisionism at it's best.

 

You're right, I could have chosen my words better. Not trying to defend the Soviet communist dictators in any way--bastards all. Especially Stalin. But I certainly don't think the people of the former USSR are or were "savages". Just people trying to get through life like the rest of us. The point I was trying to make was that Soviet leaders cared about their own physical survival in some manner. And since they weren't big professors of any sort of afterlife, it stands to reason they wanted to extend their lives as long as possible. Iran's leaders--including the now-gone Ahmadinejad--have professed a belief that their rewards lie in some sort of glorious afterlife. They have also stated publicly that Israel should be wiped off the map. They cannot be trusted with nukes, and I hope that BeBe takes out their program before it's too late. It's hard for me to fathom the darkness that steers someone like Ivan into moral equivalency arguments. Just plain dumb.

 

The Soviets were atheists. If you believe this is "it", you are a bit more averse to launching armageddon than if, say, you believe 72 virgins await you in the afterlife for your righteous holy war

 

[Fairweather]

WTF are you babbling on about? Not saying I dislike Jefferson or his big ideas.

i was assuming that, like KK, you are okay w/ the idea that some nations, like some people, are fundamentally better/more enlightened/more worthy/less crazy/etc than others - if so, that IS in conflict w/ a basic jeffersonian concept (which admittedly, he was hardly the best messenger for )

 

It's disingenuous of you to lump all of these attributes together. Better? certainly not. More worthy? no. More enlightened? yes. Less crazy? absolutely. Not sure Jefferson (or Paine or even Rosseau) would include these latter two in the natural rights column. If I'm wrong, I will stand corrected. But I suspect you've revealed something here that can be distilled down to the whole opportunities/outcomes thing.

 

Would you have encouraged FDR to share material and details of the Manhattan Project with Axis leaders in the name of nation-state equality?

[Fairweather]

 

The Soviets were atheists. If you believe this is "it", you are a bit more averse to launching armageddon than if, say, you believe 72 virgins await you in the afterlife for your righteous holy war

 

Let's be serious here: Does any aspiring jihadi really believe that his 72 virgins are gonna stay that way for more than, say, the first month or two?

[glassgowkiss]

that is a load of shit. russians do not care about their own people, never did, never will. they are savages plain and simple, and they always carried out their policies that way. They go from one fucked dictatorship to another. trusting Kruschev?- same guy who was pounding his shoe in the UN? Maybe the only reason soviets never attacked is because of work of Kuklinski?

I am not defending current rulers of Persia, but they are nothing in comparison to mass murderers from russia. your statement is just historical revisionism at it's best.

Like

 

You're right, I could have chosen my words better. Not trying to defend the Soviet communist dictators in any way--bastards all. Especially Stalin. But I certainly don't think the people of the former USSR are or were "savages". Just people trying to get through life like the rest of us. The point I was trying to make was that Soviet leaders cared about their own physical survival in some manner. And since they weren't big professors of any sort of afterlife, it stands to reason they wanted to extend their lives as long as possible. Iran's leaders--including the now-gone Ahmadinejad--have professed a belief that their rewards lie in some sort of glorious afterlife. They have also stated publicly that Israel should be wiped off the map. They cannot be trusted with nukes, and I hope that BeBe takes out their program before it's too late. It's hard for me to fathom the darkness that steers someone like Ivan into moral equivalency arguments. Just plain dumb.

 

The Soviets were atheists. If you believe this is "it", you are a bit more averse to launching armageddon than if, say, you believe 72 virgins await you in the afterlife for your righteous holy war

 

Yes, I am sure Persians starved to death millions of their own people, they also built concentration labor camps, killing in the process millions as well. Soviets also wanted openly to wipe out entire US. And why in the hell do we really care so much about Israel? Wtf?

the truth is communism killed more people then any other system put together. FW and KKK- you are totally re-writing history, nothing new here. Deep down inside you are just commie loving shitheads.

Stalin did not do these atrocities by himself. He had millions of people following orders, they carried out the actions with prejudice. That justifies terms savages.

[Fairweather]

TRANSLATOR! CAN WE GET A TRANSLATOR DOWN HERE RIGHT AWAY PLEASE!!!!

[Fairweather]

the truth is communism killed more people then any other system put together.

 

No fucking shit. But still, you support a collectivized/centralized medical system here in your adopted country. Healthcare today, agriculture tomorrow? Like you said, it's the system. I'll take my chances with capitalism's invisible hand over the commie bureaucrats you seem so fond of. Not sure why you aren't making the connection. You can't have your cake and eat it too. (You'll have to look it up.)

[Crux]

Pffft, what's there to translate? Yer a commie-loving shithead--EXPOSED!

[ivan]

 

Would you have encouraged FDR to share material and details of the Manhattan Project with Axis leaders in the name of nation-state equality?

how is that relevant? my point is that either all nations have a right to nukes, or none do. just b/c a nation has a right to a nuke doesn't mean others have an obligation to help them realize that right. indeed, restricting the trade of nuclear technology makes sense to me. but if iranians are advanced enough to build one themselves, than so be it, and we should probably save the lat n' longitude of tehran into the "favorites" menu on our minutemen

[rob]

The people who would rather "take their chances with capitalism's invisible hand" are always the ones in a favorable spot in the capitalism pyramid scheme. I guess that makes sense but it's funny anyway.

[AlpineK]

See if we let Iran build a nuke it'll give one more reason for Republicans to demand a new war in Iran. That'll fill the pocket books of big corporations and corporate leaders will take politicians (mostly but not all Republicans) for all paid vacations in the Bahamas.

 

Meanwhile the rest of us can work at McDonalds for $7.50/hr and cut our meals into small bits to make them last longer.

[glassgowkiss]

the truth is communism killed more people then any other system put together.

 

No fucking shit. But still, you support a collectivized/centralized medical system here in your adopted country. Healthcare today, agriculture tomorrow? Like you said, it's the system. I'll take my chances with capitalism's invisible hand over the commie bureaucrats you seem so fond of. Not sure why you aren't making the connection. You can't have your cake and eat it too. (You'll have to look it up.)

 

I am sure using PUBLIC roads, or sending kids to PUBLIC schools is like entering gates of hell of a road to communism. Another load of shit argument.

First of all, there is no longer real free market system- it's weird hybrid of privatization of profits and socialization of loss. All the rest of developed countries has some form of regulated health system, it doesn't mean collectivization, that is some strange hyperbole of thinking- looks like your domain.

 

 

[olyclimber]

The people who would rather "take their chances with capitalism's invisible hand" are always the ones in a favorable spot in the capitalism pyramid scheme. I guess that makes sense but it's funny anyway.

 

Not true. Also stupid people. And people who believe in that sort of thing.

[Fairweather]

 

Would you have encouraged FDR to share material and details of the Manhattan Project with Axis leaders in the name of nation-state equality?

how is that relevant? my point is that either all nations have a right to nukes, or none do. just b/c a nation has a right to a nuke doesn't mean others have an obligation to help them realize that right. indeed, restricting the trade of nuclear technology makes sense to me. but if iranians are advanced enough to build one themselves, than so be it, and we should probably save the lat n' longitude of tehran into the "favorites" menu on our minutemen

 

Ok, then by your logic bombing the Deuterium production plant at Vemork in occupied Norway in 1943 to set back the German nuke program was wrong? Got it. Don't you think keeping the Mullahs from getting the bomb in the first place is far better than targeting Tehran and all the folks who live there after the fact?