tvashtarkatena Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 (edited) The Smiff smoking ban might not survive a legal challenge unless the OR legislature has already granted its state parks statutory power to do so: http://www.niagarafallsreporter.com/Stories/2013/Oct22/judg.html Edited October 22, 2013 by tvashtarkatena Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 OMG THAT TRIP REPORT HAD A PICTURE OF IVAN SMOKING!!!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-spotter Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 Did Abbie Hoffmann ever do time for shoplifting? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobra_Commander Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 The next step is a smoking off-leash dog, on fire, taking a nap overnight in the monkey cave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 resting up for the slackline Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivan Posted October 23, 2013 Share Posted October 23, 2013 i swear the guy who hucked himself off the top in a hanglider sunday morning as i was taking a leak had a butt hanging from his lip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairweather Posted October 23, 2013 Share Posted October 23, 2013 You two better check with Ian Eyemalegend-Itzmypark to make sure these uses are appropriate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted October 23, 2013 Share Posted October 23, 2013 You two better check with Ian Eyemalegend-Itzmypark to make sure these uses are appropriate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted October 23, 2013 Share Posted October 23, 2013 (edited) Rule of law goes both ways. Smiffy's ban on smoking is very likely illegal. Best not to get one's Pranas in a wad about minor law breaking - we all do it, and that includes Johnny Law. When the latter does it, however, there is always a victim. Edited October 23, 2013 by tvashtarkatena Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobra_Commander Posted October 23, 2013 Share Posted October 23, 2013 You two better check with Ian Eyemalegend-Itzmypark to make sure these uses are appropriate. If people paid attention to some fairly simple rules there wouldn't be a problem. He's had to work a job that constantly deals with climbers who think rules don't apply to them when inconvenient. Such as the dicks who let their dogs roam free after repeatedly being told not to. I fully understand his angle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted October 23, 2013 Share Posted October 23, 2013 (edited) Discretion and consideration make the world a happier place. The more people practice them, the fewer rules we need. Given that we boast the highest per capita incarceration rate in the world, America clearly has an overabundance of rules. And an overly stringent system of rules often creates more problems and pain than it solves. Rules tend to take on a life of their own - enforcing them, not the original objectives they were supposedly designed to achieve, becomes the focus. The Drug War comes to mind. When the system becomes baroque and ridiculous enough, the rule makers lose legitimacy and people default to doing their own thing. We've become enamored with the 'if only people would just obey the rules' concept, and overly vindictive against anyone who doesn't share this flawed, and frankly, dead end philosophy. What's really needed is a renewed cultural emphasis on consideration - towards nature and other park visitors. America has become the most narcissistic nation on earth - ("we're number 1! blah blah blah") Crowdsourcing (the only difference between this and panhandling is that the panhandler actually needs the money). Facebook ("I just made an omelette!"). We'd do well to step away from ourselves a bit and cast our gaze outward. More difficult to achieve, perhaps, but far more effective in achieving the end goal of making the park a better place. Pipe dream? Perhaps, but I've seen a lot of pipe dreams come true lately. Edited October 23, 2013 by tvashtarkatena Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob Posted October 23, 2013 Share Posted October 23, 2013 I've often been complimented on my discretion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denalidave Posted October 23, 2013 Share Posted October 23, 2013 Pat fuels the fire. As he still continues to tell everyone else to STFU... Why not set the example and just STFU already? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted October 23, 2013 Share Posted October 23, 2013 Two 'rules' are all that are needed, it seems to me: 1) leave a place as good or better than when you arrived. 2) Be mindful and considerate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OlegV Posted October 23, 2013 Author Share Posted October 23, 2013 (edited) Brothers! We all love mountains. Let us stop fighting, get laid and drunk and aim our guns at our common enemies. We all know what and who first drains and then kills a man of any nationality… right Pat? Edited October 23, 2013 by OlegV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairweather Posted October 23, 2013 Share Posted October 23, 2013 As a dedicated birdwatcher, I most sincerely believe all these climbers and their shiny bolts and drills are scaring off my viewing opportunities and permanently damaging the park's environment. By God, I'm gonna write a letter to someone who can do something about it! (Ok, now I see how this works. Hey, it's easy!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete_H Posted October 23, 2013 Share Posted October 23, 2013 Given that we boast the highest per capita incarceration rate in the world, America clearly has an overabundance of rules. Clearly? Maybe we just have more criminals. I'm with you on the drug war is a failure, Pat, but I don't think its as simple as "less rules will solve our criminal justice problems." I mean, I doubt too many inmates in federal prison are locked up for smoking at Smith Rock State Park. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted October 23, 2013 Share Posted October 23, 2013 (edited) @ Olev: high maintenance girlfriends? There's really no compelling reason why climbers should be denied the incredible experience of camping in the Monkey Cave in a zero impact fashion (and that would mean blue bags, of course). The Park has a no camping rule simply because it is more easily enforced - for them. This is pretty transparent to many climbers, so the rule loses its legitimacy. Its not entitlement - its having a brain. Laws which put people in jail for smoking a weed, prevent people from marrying who they love, and fund the killing of innocent people abroad all help to erode the legitimacy of government and authority. The argument is often framed as it is here - only citizens need to step up and obey the rules. Well, it works both ways. Government needs to step up and do things that actually make sense and promote the best of our values, not our worst. And government VERY OFTEN breaks the law, and when it does, it does so spectacularly and in a fashion far more damaging than any private citizen could manage. Surveillance anyone? Edited October 23, 2013 by tvashtarkatena Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted October 23, 2013 Share Posted October 23, 2013 (edited) Given that we boast the highest per capita incarceration rate in the world, America clearly has an overabundance of rules. Clearly? Maybe we just have more criminals. I'm with you on the drug war is a failure, Pat, but I don't think its as simple as "less rules will solve our criminal justice problems." I mean, I doubt too many inmates in federal prison are locked up for smoking at Smith Rock State Park. Actually, your statement is not true at all. Half of inmates at all levels are in prison for non-violent drug offenses, and half of those are for marijuans. We DO lock people up for smoking - 800,000 of them, - more than the population of Seattle, is behind bars right now for inhaling a weed. America does have more criminals because it has criminalized far more behavior than any other nation. This may well be the only form of on-shore manufacturing that has flourished in recent years. Eric Holder just issued an incredible pair of memos outlining how we've gone wrong regarding the Drug War, and what prosecutors should focus on going forward to repair that. His assertions are right on the money and portend a stunning sea change away from our current period of massive government dysfunction. I'll see if I can find a link (mine's a hardcopy). We do, indeed, live in amazing times. Nothing in this world is simple, but many things are simpler than we are often led to believe. Edited October 23, 2013 by tvashtarkatena Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairweather Posted October 23, 2013 Share Posted October 23, 2013 Two 'rules' are all that are needed, it seems to me: 1) leave a place as good or better than when you arrived. 2) Be mindful and considerate. I like the suggestion, but you're basically asking people to replace laws with morality. Never gonna happen. Plato played out this same thought exercise in The Republic about 2500 years ago and (some say) satirized its folly. I'm not a big fan of laws these days--particularly, like you say, laws for the sake of laws. Here in the US it's a popular expression to boast "we are a nation of laws!" This is, at the same time, admitting our failures since laws would be largely unnecessary in a moral society. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted October 23, 2013 Share Posted October 23, 2013 Two 'rules' are all that are needed, it seems to me: 1) leave a place as good or better than when you arrived. 2) Be mindful and considerate. I like the suggestion, but you're basically asking people to replace laws with morality. Never gonna happen. Plato played out this same thought exercise in The Republic about 2500 years ago and (some say) satirized its folly. I'm not a big fan of laws these days--particularly, like you say, laws for the sake of laws. Here in the US it's a popular expression to boast "we are a nation of laws!" This is, at the same time, admitting our failures since laws would be largely unnecessary in a moral society. It may never happen fully, but we can certainly walk in that direction. 'Zero tolerance' (Thanks, Gipper!) is another failed American idea that is still particularly popular with our nation's school marm set. Problem is, it has nothing to do with reality. I never thought a lot of things would happen - in my life, outside my life - but they have. The word 'inmpossible' so often comes with an assumed prediction of the future. The future is often a choice, however. How that choice is framed goes a helluva long way towards choosing wisely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonG Posted October 23, 2013 Share Posted October 23, 2013 Two 'rules' are all that are needed, it seems to me: 1) leave a place as good or better than when you arrived. 2) Be mindful and considerate. As I often learn at work and at home, my interpretation of rule #2 if often at odds with others' view of said rule. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted October 23, 2013 Share Posted October 23, 2013 Nobody said it was easy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete_H Posted October 23, 2013 Share Posted October 23, 2013 Given that we boast the highest per capita incarceration rate in the world, America clearly has an overabundance of rules. Clearly? Maybe we just have more criminals. I'm with you on the drug war is a failure, Pat, but I don't think its as simple as "less rules will solve our criminal justice problems." I mean, I doubt too many inmates in federal prison are locked up for smoking at Smith Rock State Park. Actually, your statement is not true at all. Half of inmates at all levels are in prison for non-violent drug offenses, and half of those are for marijuans. We DO lock people up for smoking - 800,000 of them, - more than the population of Seattle, is behind bars right now for inhaling a weed. America does have more criminals because it has criminalized far more behavior than any other nation. This may well be the only form of on-shore manufacturing that has flourished in recent years. Eric Holder just issued an incredible pair of memos outlining how we've gone wrong regarding the Drug War, and what prosecutors should focus on going forward to repair that. His assertions are right on the money and portend a stunning sea change away from our current period of massive government dysfunction. I'll see if I can find a link (mine's a hardcopy). We do, indeed, live in amazing times. Nothing in this world is simple, but many things are simpler than we are often led to believe. It wasn't so much a statement as questioning your logic that the reason we have the most people incarcerated is clearly because we have too many rules. This isn't clear on its face at all. Like I said, I tend to agree with you that our drug policy needs reform, especially regarding incarcerating anyone for marijuana possession. However, that's a far different argument than your original statement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted October 23, 2013 Share Posted October 23, 2013 (edited) More accurately, it's not clear to you...it is to just about everyone in the business, advocacy, political, or criminal justice. The AG has now officially agreed with my assertion, so you'll forgive me if I'm not terribly concerned about your carping sans counterpoint. I've grown used to that from you. The topic is important, however, so... Our per capita incarceration rate is nearly twice that of the next runner up - Russia, and over 7 times that of China, that bastion of civil rights. We are an extreme outlier worldwide. Contrast that with our violent and property crimes rates, which are not terribly different from other first world nations. Incarceration rates have continued to skyrocket despite significant drops in crime across the board in the past 2 decades. The Drug War (the main bulk of the rules I was referring to) has statistically been, by far, the major cause of this massive increase in prison population. Hence, the 'too many rules' assertion. Incarceration rate by year, United States This graph is based on DOJ data that is widely available, BTW. The Drug War has also been the primary excuse to pass numerous laws that erode the 4th and 5th amendments, remove judicial discretion, and increase sentences. The new direction the US is currently taking includes de-criminalization (fewer laws) , undoing mandatory sentencing (fewer laws), restoring judicial discretion, diversion programs for low level offenders to treatment rather than prosecution, restoration of convict rights after time is served to repair the damage done to so many lives, and a host of other policy shifts. It will take time. A long, long time. 41 years is a long time to suffer under such devastating policies. We've overused criminallzation (too many rules, and bad ones, at that) to solve societies ills - and it wound up doing far more damage than it repaired. The DOJ is finally acknowledging that - and that has a tremendous amount to do with the I 502 campaign (much of the DOJ's recent statements on the topic were lifted straight from 502's supporting arguments.) Exciting, but we have decades of work ahead to undo this civil rights clusterfuck we've created. Edited October 23, 2013 by tvashtarkatena Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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