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sketchfest

Cardio

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This is good information. I'm getting into swimming because of a chronic low back thing. Doesn't seem to like long bike rides or runs if I do it a couple days in a row. Thus swimming. How long did it take you to get comfortable with longer swimming workouts. And were you able to move back into biking or running more because of the swimmng. Thanks.

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Good thread, all -- though too much mention of biking... cheeburga_ron.gif Look closely at your original goals: being able to power up a mountain in as little time as possible. Sounds like interval training will be really beneficial -- check out our latest article here: http://www.bodyresults.com/E2FartlekIntervals.asp By including higher intensity work mixed in with one longer endurance workout (carrying a pack, in the mountains) and some strength training (30 minutes of squats, dips, lunges or deadlifts for the legs/core/lower back should be pretty easy to fit in once or twice a week for just about anyone) you will probably see some good improvement. And a swim here and there can be good cross-training, though remember if you're PRIMARILY swimming for mountaineering there won't be the spine-loading benefits or carry-over that other activities (hiking, jogging, stairs, elliptical, or -- yes -- even cycling) will have to your sport. Set some goals, be very clear what you want to attain, then design a program to get you closer to those goals. Or have a trainer design it for you... grin.gif

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original question:

 

<<I run 3-4 times a week, roughly 3.5 miles at a time. The circuit is mostly flat, with the final mile turning up hill and the last 1/2 mile could actually be considered uphill. With all that said, when I go to the mountains, I do not feel like my cardio is in very good shape, as soon as I start hiking up hill, I feel like I'm under a huge load and working very hard even at an easy pace. I'm wondering what other exercises I can do to improve my cardio response. >>

 

I took another look at your original question, and it looks like you could benefit not only from intervals but also specifically going up hills -- whether that's on a stepmill, stairmaster, or pack work up and down a hill. Start with 20-25 minutes of up and down hill work (running is one option, carrying a pack another more closely related to climbing) and try to push yourself harder with each workout. I wouldn't necessarily throw in a 12 mile run, if you're struggling with 3.5 miles -- that's not what you seem to be most concerned about -- but do include a longer hike on weekends when you have a chance, and gradually increase the pack weight for leg-specific strength endurance. The more muscle you have in your legs (and YES, you CAN gain muscle without gaining body weight, as it helps you reduce bodyfat by revving up the metabolism, and better to have active, functional muscle than passive fat!) the more SPEED AND POWER you can generate on uphills.

Edited by Courtenay

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I ran my first Half Marathon today up in Skagit Valley. ("Nookachamps") I ran with a climbing partner who's ass I can kick pretty good on a workout trip to Muir, or on a trip like Si, or Mailbox, or anywhere!

 

My question is this: If I can stomp him on a climb, then HOW the hell can he beat me by 15 minutes in a half marathon??!! Is running even a valid training tool for climbing? Just different muscle groups I guess?

Edited by Fairweather

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Fascinating, Fairweather -- delve into that further: perhaps you have more leg strength (what is your pack comparison when doing uphills vs. your training buddy?) or more glutes (the uphill muscles vs. quads, descents/ running muscles) but less experience with the sheer cardio endurance of a 13 mile run? I'd say some of that is probably due to familiarity with the distance -- how many has your partner done? And how does your running training differ? I firmly believe climbing training and distance running are actually quite different, (uphills vs. flat as one obvious component -- hence muscles used) though there are obviously plenty of people who use running to get in cardio shape for climbing... Can you share any other differences? Or I'd be happy to take this up with you offline, it's fascinating to me!

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That is interesting. Fairwhether do you train by running up hill?

 

Heres a question kinda related does anyone know if you can use the Husky Stadium to run stairs. I know it weird but i think that would be good training.

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I'm not sure if you are theoretically allowed to run stairs in the stadium but getting in is usually no problem. You can go to the east end of the stadium by the parking lot and usually the fence is open, if not try entering on the other side by the indoor practice facility. If none of that works you can enter through Hec Ed and go through the tunnel, just don't wear a Cougar sweatsuit! wink.gif

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My workouts consist primarily of 5x/week short runs (5k max-short hills) and a longer run (8mi) once every couple weeks. Additionally, I use a "stair-mill" at the gym 3 or 4 times per week for 45-60 minutes at a time. I usually get up into the mountains, for at least a workout, every 3 weeks or so during the winter months. (Si, Tiger Mtn, etc)

 

The climbing partner to whom I refer runs 13 miles twice per week, and bikes almost daily. (Not sure about the distance.) He is into the whole triathalon scene. He does not climb as much as I do.

 

I am thinking that my cardio is very good, but that my body just isn't used to the pounding I gave it Saturday. Heart/lungs could have gone on for a full marathon (easily), but I doubt I could have gone more than another 2 or 3 miles as my hamstrings were getting tight and my achilles were as tight as guitar strings.

 

I'm just not sure if the punishment that running dishes out is a positive thing for a 40 year old guy like me. I like running, but I want to remain active in the mountains well into my old age. I'm trying to train for a full marathon this summer, but I don't want some running related injury to spoil my "climbing summer".

 

Should I stick to the low impact cardio? Legnthen my running distance at a modest pace? Can I "train" my muscles to take this kind of abuse?

 

Your insight is apreciated...

 

Brian

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I too run and swim. I'm just bad at keeping a regular routine. I run for 35 - 45 minutes and push on the hills. Another thing I do during my run is to stop and do 40 deep telemark turn simulations 3 times during the run. That gets my quads and cardio too. One question I have about swimming is I see others using fins with cut off blades. What I've noticed about swimming is that your arms propell you much more than your legs. So for those using the fins, I imagine it balances things out. Is that the idea? Personally, I swim more for the arm/torso workout so skip the fins. l like sea kayaking too for the upper body. I'd like to hear from someone else after they try my tele turn thing during their run.

Edited by David_Parker

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I too run and swim. I'm just bad at keeping a regular routine. I run for 35 - 45 minutes and push on the hills. Another thing I do during my run is to stop and do 40 deep telemark turn simulations 3 times during the run. That gets my quads and cardio too. One question I have about swimming is I see others using fins with cut off blades. What I've noticed about swimming is that your arms propell you much more than your legs. So for those using the fins, I imagine it balances things out. Is that the idea? Personally, I swim more for the arm/torso workout so skip the fins. l like sea kayaking too for the upper body. I'd like to hear from someone else after they try my tele turn thing during their run.

 

That is an awesome idea with the tele turn thing, I'll have try that out. So what do snowboarders do then, fall on their ass? grin.gif

 

I'm not sure about the cut off fins, I think they are just for strengthening your kick. If you are intersted in the upper body thing get some paddles, I've gained a lot of muscle in my arms, shoulders, and lats using these things and I've noticed increase power and stamina just putzing around in the climbing gym.

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My question is this: If I can stomp him on a climb, then HOW the hell can he beat me by 15 minutes in a half marathon??!! Is running even a valid training tool for climbing? Just different muscle groups I guess?

Your buddy is over a minute per mile faster than you. That's how he beat you by 15 minutes. Assuming both of you ran at, or near, your respective lactate threshold, your lactate-threshold running velocity (LTRV) is lower. If you want to boost LTRV, boost your maxVO2. Fartlek workouts work well. Try 1) 10 minute intervals at 10K pace with 2-3 minute recoveries; 2) 6 minute intervals at 10K pace with 1-2 minute recoveries; 3) 5 minute intervals at 5K pace with 2-3 minute recoveries. 3-5 intervals per workout (after a warmup and preceding a warmdown) can be enough. Leg speed can be improved with short distance (200-400 meter) intervals.

With regard to using climbing as a training tool for running, it's much like training for the ballet by barfighting. It's not enough to use the same muscles; You have to use them in the same way. The "recruitment" of muscles for a particular exercise improves by using them in trainging the same way they're used in competition. Sometimes this is referred to as muscle memory". I've seen anectdotal evidence that ending a workout with the motion you'll use in competition can be an effective cross-training strategy. For example, end a weight workout with 10 minutes of spinning on a bike for cycling competition. Or end the workout with some jogging (maybe even getting briefly to tempo) for running competition.

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My question is this: If I can stomp him on a climb, then HOW the hell can he beat me by 15 minutes in a half marathon??!! Is running even a valid training tool for climbing? Just different muscle groups I guess?

 

I don't have the physical therapist knowledge or what "freeclimb9" says, but like I said in my earlier post.....I have taken out runners on climbs, and I have taken out people who mountain bikers. The runners suck on climbs. For some reason the runners just don't have the power. This is why I do not run and only do a stairstepper or bicycle as training. Just pure observation. By the way, the mountain bikers have kicked my ass on climbs.

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Doesn't running and climbing use different primary muscles?

 

Climbing is about lifting the body up which is straightening the legs by the quadricep muscles of the thigh and the glutes. Running is about pulling the trunk horizontally over the foot, bending the knee by using the hamstrings. Cyclists use their quads glutes as well.

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hey jon, contrary to popular belief snowboarders do not practice falling on their asses. thats a good one though.

 

answering the threads original question.... it seems this gentleman has two concerns. 1) Time 2) Muscular & Cardio advancement.

Personally, my workouts depend on what type of equipment I have access to at the time. My preferred workouts take up less than 40 minutes. In this time I would begin with a series of calistenics that include jumping jacks, push ups, crunches, squat thrusts, and 75% squats (squat action never in the rest mode of standing upright). I prefer to do a series of 20 jumping jacks between each other type of activity in order to prep the heart for the workout to come. The next thing is to jump on a stationary bicycle for some interval training. I prefer the stationary bicycle primarily because it is easy to get a good cardio workout while building your leg muscles. My interval workout on the stationary bike consists of:

 

5 min. 60%

2 min. 90-max%

3 min. 40-50% think heart rate to slow jog

2 min. 90-max%

.......repeat intervals finishing with a 5 min cool down.

 

I prefer to think of the 2 min max intervals as muscle building mode. So bump the resistance/level up so that with each pedal I have to exert a lot of force (I am not trying to see how fast I can pedal but to get a good/faster cadence where the force is maximized). For the HR thing...I am 28 so my "slow jog" rate is about 140-150 and I bump it up to 170-180 for the 90%-max interval.

 

Without access to the stationary bicycle I prefer to do hill workouts (running) after about a 10minute warmup. If you have a decent hill to workout on try doing wind sprints up and augment the decline with sidesteps, backwards lunges, or forward lunges (just do the declines SLOWLY). You can also switch up your ascents with forward hops, one leg bounds, or what have you...be creative and have fun with it. The cool thing I find about hills and interval training is you can easily reach your threshold of pain (is it called Anaerobic Threshold? Scientists?). Doing these workouts 2 to 3 times per week you will begin to feel better about your hiking and climbing.

 

Peace Out -

Eerie

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Freeclimb is accurate, your training should mimic the movements you are training for or you will get little transfer. Obviously stair machine is better than running flats. In fact walking fast up steep hills is arguably better than running up less steep hills. If you have freeweights, squats might help. Sqats would be better than leg extensions on a machine or other devices they are more similar the movements done when going up hills, the same point as above. Running flats does not exercise the quadriceps enough.

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Eerie outlines an interval workout that might prove useful -- for much more on including interval training and its variations in your own program, feel free to read the following article: http://www.bodyresults.com/E2FartlekIntervals.asp I'd suggest you only include interval training (at first) once or twice a week, as they are high intensity and require proper recovery; added to your program, however, they can help raise your lactate threshold, increase your cardiovascular capacity at altitude, AND help improve body composition, a major factor for climbers who want as much lean, "functional" muscle mass as possible while being as light as they can...

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