old school climbers vs. sport climbers

[Beck]

I think all climbers need to approach the vertical wilderness with a bit more conservation minded action...people complain about permits in the Enchantments or blue bags and restrictions on the volcanoes, but how long would unregulated use take to totally trash those alpine environment?

I beleive it's selfish, self centered and very unfair to future climbers to assume what we're doing now is going to be okay and acceptable to FUTURE generations of climbers.

[MysticNacho]

Well put Pope, I agree 100% with jus about everything you said. Matt has a good point on the name calling though. But just remember the original point I made, rag on those individuals who climb with the ethics you mentioned in your post, not ALL sport climbers. For instance myself, who aspires to climb trad but is limited by the fact that I'm slowly building my rack and my experience, and as they are not quite up to snuff for me to feel like I could safely climb trad as YET, what am I supposed to do, not climb? Great way to build experience, eh? Of course I'm going to sport climb!

But hey, call all the names you want, it doesn't really matter. Sure, I like most of your ethics, but I don't like the attitude. But you don't have to like me, and I don't have to like you, so climb on and have fun!

I'm getting tired of this topic

[Retrosaurus]

Gee pope, you arguements are true and valid but not all people that share your point of view are politically correct.

[Jens]

Both "trads" and "sport climbers" have pros and cons. Something to note: the new "rads" don't seem to be tying in much these days. A friend of mine in CO says that rifle is pleasant these days No attidtudes, screams of obscenties after blowing 100th redpoint attempt, and best of all no crowds. These types are all out bouldering.

Trads: (my stereotypes here people)

*Seem to be having more fun.

*lack the vision to reach an awesome goal.

*are often to much of a wussy to fall on bomber gear on steep rock- It holds them back.

*Are fun to road trip and party with.

Sportos (my stereotypes again)

*Set goals and reach them.

*Aren't as fun to road trip or party with.

*Are usuall better atheltes before they got into climbing. (wrestling, gymnastics, dance, ballet, kick boxing etc.)

*Not as fun to talk with (all they talk about is the beta to their latest project).

 

[Uncle_Tricky]

Some observations: It seems to me that "Sport" and "Trad" are loaded labels that are used mostly for purposes of self-identification/differentiation with or from a group. Its easier than thinking.

While the terms themselves implicitely describe the protection possibilities of a given climb, which is a fairly specific and quantifiable factor, they have also come to imply a whole layer of vague and variable ethical attitudes, fashion tendencies, political beliefs and environmental values. In any case, I think its true to say that "Sport" and "Trad" are commonly posited as opposite/opposing clubs more because of the people and their attitudes rather than the climbs.

 

Sure, the generalizations about sport and trad climbers are sometimes true and entertainingly accurate. Perhaps that because different kinds of climbing natually attract different kinds of people. At the same time, the climbing experiences shapes the person. For example, it seems obvious to me that a climber placing his own protection must rely more heavily on his own judgement, skills and experience to be safe. This requires a initial willingness to trust one's self and in the process of learning and pushing our limits, we are changed.

Although the terms Sport and Trad are basically rooted in describing the different means of protecting a given climb, the terms are all about the people climbing them and tell us very little about the climbs themselves. Personally, when describing a route, I usually avoid the loaded terms and describe climbs as bolted climbs, gear climbs, or climbs with mixed pro. Any of the above can be well protected or poorly protected, tame or bold.

Personally, I really enjoy the challenge of placing my own gear and relying on my own judgement to protect myself when climbing. For me, this type of climbing provides a rewarding fusion of physical and mental challenges. Sure, I'll toprope now and then or climb a climb that is partially or entirely protected by bolts.

But this doesn't mean that I need to choose between Ethical/cultural/fashion Dogma A or B. Instead of relying on my identification with "Sport" or "Trad" to define me, I like the challenge of trying to define myself.

~Uncle Tricky

[This message has been edited by Uncle Tricky (edited 10-06-2001).]

[max]

Just to add my two cents....

I've always thought of sport and trad not being dictated by bolts or gear pro, but more on the STYLE of the climb. A sport climb, to me, is a climb that focuses on gymnastic movements, is usually short, and is most interested in the actual movements. A trad climb has many more aspects, such as commitment, approach, tricky gear, obscure technique (what the hell is a hand jam and how do you ice it?). So if you compare the bolt/gear definitions to my definitions, you'll see some similarities, and you'll see some differences. Many of the climbs on the north side of the feathers are bolted, but I wouldn't consider them sport climbs (they're too easy). So of the routes at peshastin are bolted, but I wouldn't call them sport routes (they're too scary). Maybe I could sum it up best be saying sport routes emphisize difficulty and trad routes emphisize adventure.

[Guest]

A sport climb is retro bolted.

Traditional climbing ethics are ground up. Hence more runouts. Who wants to drill on lead? I am not advocating a bolt ladder up a big wall but those are more traditional methods. How many ground up climbs that use hand drilled bolts are not runout or require gear placing skills? This is definitely obvious in many places. It was unheard of years ago to tackle climbs from the top down. Placing your bolts in that fashion was considered unethical because you would be approaching climbs by cheating. Arguments about cleaning and removing bad rock are weak and mere excuses for the new breed.

So the way a climb is established is most likely the answer.

Sport climbing is just a step up from the gymn. Most of them are well protected and less than 100 feet in length. But not all that is for sure. New "accepted" methods that were not thinkable in the past allow for more routes to be put in this way. Since most of the sense of danger and unknown is removed many people do not accept this or respect it as a form of acceptable climbing. Often cruxes are laid out in a guidebook and number of bolts to clip is evident. The skills necessary in the old days are removed. You are no longer required the ability to eyeball a climb and select gear and gain as much experience as you might have in the past under some sort of mentorship. You just clip the bolts and don't usually worry about the dangers, so to speak. Also the skills necessary to put in the climbs is not as much of an issue. Many argue that people with drills can steal routes from traditional adventurers\route establishers because they can insert bolts into the rock at a faster pace with the power drill and rehearse the moves with a toprope. Not facing the rock in a ground up style that is obviously more time consuming. There is something to be said about the boldness of ground up methods.

Sport climbing is here to stay. It is a good thing to have this too. Nice way to train. Just remember there are not too many bolts in the mountains. If you never travel in the mountains then you should not have much to worry about.

[This message has been edited by OfficeSpace (edited 10-07-2001).]

[LUCKY]

Well I see the Blackbelt Internet Spraymasters stayed at home this weekend to work on there 1000 word essay on how there climbing style is the only acceptable one.You don't get extra credit for SPRAY.Contact your doctor those sticks might have to be surgically removed.

[Cpt.Caveman]

quote:

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Originally posted by LUCKY:

Well I see the Blackbelt Internet Spraymasters stayed at home this weekend to work on there 1000 word essay on how there climbing style is the only acceptable one.You don't get extra credit for SPRAY.Contact your doctor those sticks might have to be surgically removed.

---

 

Hi Ya! Ninja Master is here!

 

[offwidthclimber]

quote:

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Originally posted by LUCKY:

Well I see the Blackbelt Internet Spraymasters stayed at home this weekend to work on there 1000 word essay on how there climbing style is the only acceptable one.You don't get extra credit for SPRAY.Contact your doctor those sticks might have to be surgically removed.

---

I don't think it could have been said any better. hahaha.

 

[Rafael_H]

Just read the thread from the beginning. It is easy to see that those calling themselves "trad climbers" are

1. In minority. C'mon people, why so much attention to pope, retrosaurus and officespace? They do need to identify themselves somehow and chose this "trad" thing. So are Godzilla, Exasperator or Double Cross, etc. "trad" climbs and Wham, Loose Lady, Heinous Cling, etc "sport"? What about the Grand Wall?

Maybe there is no such distinction after all. It is like comparing thin crack to offwidth or edges to pockets. One can die on any route if not skilled enough to deal with the situation at hand. I think (and repeat many sound heads on the board) the distinction is probably in the commitment level. Easy walk up, a row of routes to choose from, easy to bail out (yes, Outer Space, Serenity Crack and Grand Wall qualify) - sounds like sport to me.

2. Are very close minded and perhaps even worse. I loved chocolate's post, but man, it was apparently too subtle (hee-hee). And pope's (pathetic) essay can't reveal any more inexperience, close-mindedness and lack of vision. (Please, pope, don't tell me about the decades of climbing, it obviously reached your climax years ago). "Old timer" is a bad term, I recently tried to call Pope's old timers and one known "old timer" was offended by such generalization (sorry!) so I had to make a further distinction to ones with and without brains. There are hard-core people who climbed hard then and climb hard now, bolts, gear or alpine (and please, NR of Stuart does not qualify unless you do it in 6 hrs car to car).

3. Mostly poor climbers that are too lazy to improve. Those new to climbing, all you have to do is to go climbing more often to Index, Smith, big sport places and the gyms (no typo) that attract large number of people and communicate with g o o d climbers, learn from their attitudes. Forget the sport/trad thing. All .12-.13 climbers I have met so far are most often doing all these things with equal love and ability. If someone onsights 12 face but flails on a 5.9 crack that is merely because they don't climb cracks often. Means just that. They may not like it, never thought of it, 1000's of things. And yes, some, few, may be afraid of gear climbs. No reason to categorize and antagonize ourselves. "Place the pro on lead" - again, it has been said already, only matters to the first ascensionist and I don't mind having large faces bolted because climbing them is fun and a great school.

Finally, bolting proper. The issue surely does exist: yes or no, spacing, environmental impact. Radicals do exist, have their place and are even necessary at times. Just remember, they must be identified and understood as such!!! (Osama guy, eco-terrorists, anti-abortion crowd, etc. Hey, Pope, can I call you a micro- or nano- Osama? ) I, again, agree that approach, cleaning and subsequent tree mutilation from just climbing are so much more obvious and severe impacts. Was scoping routes on Goat Dome and if the route is not climbed often and overgrown it is not at all easy to spot the bolts.

 

So, what's the point? I remember someone on the board asking how they'd be judged by the crowd. Well, this is why I am writing, the crowd is not the ones who shout loudest. Go ahead, participate, let's see if this is the fireplace where capable don't have to prove themselves any other way but by climbing, where reason and honest discussion do help build a community whose voice matters, where beta is not considered spray and.. . on and on.

My 23 roubles.

[texplorer]

Nice response Uncle Tricky. You summed up this debate very neatly. I am just sorry I had to read all afternoon to get to the few intelligable responses. While you guys sprayed I was climbing. Adios-

[Norm]

Criminy what a thread!

Ok so I can't resist throwing this out. If it take less than a few hours to get to the rock it's a friggin sport climb bolts gear or whatever! But then, I've got a body built by Rugby and Beer, aspire to climb 5.9, and spend way too much time skiing big mountains to get there any time soon.

All joking aside, in the whole fixed anchors in the wilderness debate are bolts that much different than a bridge? Also, is some a wad of fushia webbing slung around three separate trees, which are all about to come out by the roots, more environmentally friendly?