maintenance of crags

[Beck]

Matt, I'll be ordering a copy of the Access Fund's Climbing Management book and will loan it to you when it arrives,this could be something they address.

[mattp]

Vantage and Exit 38 and both areas have seen an effort to establish "steering committees" which might play some oversight role in determining where and when new routes and new bolts may be added (Exit 38 has a standing committee and they have formulated rules specific to that area, and I believe the Vantage effort is in an earlier development stage but may be headed that way).

As to the actual active maintenance of the crags, however, the Access fund has sponsored trail projects but the only organized effort to replace old bolts or to remove misplaced ones that I have heard of in Washington took place at Peshastin, several years ago. Other bolt replacement or removal efforts have been undertaken by people who took it upon theirselves to do so on their own, sometimes with contributions from a jar in a climbing shop or from a group like the Washington Mountain Alliance, but generally without any broader community involvement other than perhaps talking with their friends before they went out to tackle a particular project.

On this bulletin board, we have seen a great deal of discussion of whether or not bolts ever belong next to cracks, whether they belong on "traditional" crags, or whether sport climbing is something that should be encouraged. These are important issues, and the debates continue. However, I suggested in another thread that I am interested in what might be the PROCESS for making the decision with regard any particular bolt or fixed pin or whatever: how do we support the maintenance of the vertical part of the climbing environment that we all cherish so much? Are committees like those at Exit 38 and Vantage the wave of the future? How do we encourage individual climbers or clubs to take responsibility for maintaining the routes? Should we?

[mattp]

So far I note one response to my post suggesting a discussion about how we might organize as a user group to support the maintenance of our crags. I realize that abstract talk about how we might organize the climbers' community may seem unimportant or, worse, some may feel that all it could lead to is more diatribe and no real progress. Further, we here at cascadeclimbers.com may not speak for the climbing community, and such a topic may not be as entertaining as something more salacious. So maybe this is not the right forum for that discussion. But if you don't participate in some such discussion either here or somewhere out in the real world outside of cyberspace, you are leaving your climbing future up to those that join clubs or, more likely, up to the zealots who have the motivation to take things into their own hands. We complain of sport bolters destroying the climbing environment, or bolt choppers promoting bolt wars, but even if those "other guys" are misguided or worse, at least they are taking a day out of their lives to put some real time and money into making what they obviously must feel is a real contribution to our sport.

I believe that the unfortunate truth is that many of us would rather complain about how things are than to participate in a discussion of how we might make them better. It's often the same way with an organized work party -- nobody likes the muddy mess on a Darrington approach hike, the parking problems at Little Si, or the trash and erosion at Vantage, but how many of you rock climbers have turned out for an Access Fund trail project this year? Have you attended a meeting of the Frenchmen's Coulee Climber's Association, or taken some other direct action toward contributing to the climbing environment? Sure, meetings can be boring or even worse they may degenerate into a mudfest. And sure, work projects often involve work and frequently do not yield any tremendous benefit. And yes, if you install or remove bolts, and even if you replace old ones, you are likely to draw some complaint from somebody. But what else can we do?

"If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem."

[chuckie]

Recently, I heard Tom Frost say that climbing areas will be managed, the only question is by whom.

Does anyone have access info for the Frenchmens Springs group.

Has everyone joined the Access Fund?

[Matt]

Follow these hyperlinks for more information on the Frenchman Coulee Climbers' Coalition.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FrenchmanCouleeClimbers

http://frenchmancoulee.org

[This message has been edited by Matt (edited 10-17-2001).]

[Beck]

As in the case of recent bolt chopping on sport routes at Frenchman's Coulee, it is indeed shown that climbing areas will be managed, it is up to climbers to unite in a voice that will help maintain access, improve relations with land owners/ managers, and preserve the vertical environment for future generations of climbers. Ropegun has some well thought out questions, I don't know the answers but am willing to work toward the solutions.

[jon]

I think uniting is going to be key here. While we bicker about bolts we're going to lose our right to climb at areas. It won't be about bolt or no bolt, it will be climb or no climb. I'll choose climb. After being witness to what has happened to the locol mt. biking community over the last 10 years, where we have lost a lot of sweet single track mainly to a bunch of ignorant city councilmen while the trail club is bending over backwards to keep whats left, protecting our rights to our crags is something we can't ignore. I think this needs to start with a bigger Access Fund presence in this state, having more reps easing the burden on Andy Fitz.

[lizard_brain]

If "steering committees" are formed, under whose authority would they fall? How much "enforcement power" would they have, and what agency would grant it to them?

[haireball]

Matt, - excellent thread, damn thorny idea... I agree with the concept you're proposing, and see a long road to implementation. Seems like whatever "we" could come up with would have to earn the blessing of public land management agencies like the USFS, BLM, state and national parks administrations, etc. Also, the final form of the setup would have to have some teeth - and this would generate resistance. Access Fund, Mountaineers, Mazamas, AAC would be places to look for support for the concept - maybe AMGA and outfitters as well. Indemnification is a big issue if "we" purport to "maintain" actual anchors and routes. Lots to talk about...

[LUCKY]

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[This message has been edited by LUCKY (edited 10-19-2001).]

[jon]

I want to add to my earlier statements.

As I said before what I think is a good example of what could happen is what happened to the mountain biking here and in other areas. Two places that saw significant shut downs were Tiger mountain and the Redmond watershed. The watershed had endless incredible single track. First timers going there not being familiar with the area would ride for what seemed like hours riding all over lost but in bliss until they found their way to a road to find their way to the car. It was heaven and only a few minutes away. As it became more popular neighbors started to complain and eventually the Redmond City Council decided to ban mountain bikers even with the user groups pleading. Now if you drive through Novelty Hill you will see endless housing developments, large roads, and traffic that wasn’t there only a few years ago when the we were banned. They have now closed the watershed to all use because of the environmental impact. The same happened on Tiger, but it was the hiking and horse user groups that shut most of the trails down there, citing environmental impact. Funny thing is the state logs the mountain for timber to support schools, which I’m pretty sure has a greater impact than a couple of tires rolling through the woods. Most of the trails in the Seattle area are kept open by a hard working user group, which have had to build most of the trails for us to ride on but for everyone to use.

So why is this example important to the discussion? First, if our voice isn’t big enough and heard, than the same could happen to our crags. There are groups out there that want to shut down climbing areas, if there wasn’t there would be a need for an Access Fund. As climbing becomes increasingly popular, like mountain biking did in the early 90’s, we will be increasingly noticed as well as our impact, giving ammunition for these anti-climbing groups. We can either ban together and be heard and have our responsibility noticed or we can have our little factions of sport climbers and traditionalists or whatever that have no clout and don’t get a whole lot done. The voice of the group is exponentially proportional to the number of people in it. Look at the NRA for instance. Whether you agree with them or not they get shit done, they’ve got money and they have power and they get their way. Bickering about bolts as important as issue as it may be won’t get us anywhere, because while we are arguing what is ethical someone who isn’t a climber is deciding it for us, like what is happening with the wilderness bolting issue. These are problems that need to be solved within the group and the only way to do that is to have control of the situation, which means a united, large, strong user group. We may not all agree on bolts or whatever but we all agree on one thing, our right to go climbing.

Second, I think you have to look beyond the rock and to the area itself. You can’t just show you care about the pitches of rock, you have to show you care about the whole area, which mean conservation of it. Some people think 38 is a cool place for its proximity to the metro area, but it wouldn’t be very cool if the all the trees are chopped down by whom ever owns it. I’m sure there are other areas that fit in this category.

I have a strange tendency to write a lot so I’m going to stop and hopefully in all my babble there was something resembling a coherent argument, but there is one more thing. People can make fun of this website all they want, cascadesprayers blah blah blah, no legends posting whatever, I don’t really care. When Tim and I came up with the idea for this thing we had some ideas and some goals, and one of those was to hopefully make a contribution and provide a place for people to discuss issues like these so we can hopefully continue to enjoy our passion, climbing. I for one really wanted to have a place where people could find out what issues were affecting our crags and I’ve tried hard to do that with some obstacles. I think I’ve succeeded with the fee demo information; I need to work harder to get Access Fund info from them. Point being we’re providing one of the tools that is necessary for the type of endeavor mattp is suggesting, but it can’t just be limited to this, it’s definitely a start to get the word out, but it’s meaningless unless we actually go out and do something.

Christ this is long, sorry!

Jon

[Bob_Clarke]

Matt, I applaud your creative presausion to generate a discussion. As a leader in a very corporate process oriented environment, I have a deep appreciation for clear direction.

Therefore your thread brings to mind some questions that need answers in order to proceed.

1. How do the areas get split into divisions? Say by Beckey Guide Book sections, or by individual areas?

2. What qualifications would a person need to sit on such a committee, how are those individuals recruited and how would a leader be elected?

3. What would be the decision making process?

4. What are the clear goals or objectives of the committee and process?

5. How are these goals to be measured?

6. Where and how would the budgets and cost be controlled?

7. What about risk mitigation?

Many other questions come to mind, those are just the nuts and bolts (pardon the pun) of committee building. I'd be willing to discuss the issue further.

[chelle]

I agree that it is important to make sure that our voices are heard. I believe that trying to leverage off of existing channels (Access Fund, AAC, other clubs, etc.) is a place to start. We can learn what they do to communicate with gov't agencies and also useful practices/processes they use for items that will be critical for a successful effort -- decision making, setting priorities, publicity, fund raising, etc.

It sounds like there is a group of people who are interested in this topic, but we need to actually put something into action and get started if we're serious about trying to make a difference.

Any interest in a face-to-face meeting to talk about how to get started?

[dberdinka]

The sheer increase in climber visitations and impact certainly indicates that management of the crags is inevitable and probably desirable. Climbers will typically be happier and better served if that management is in part done by a committee of climbers.

I believe that it is very important, and not so simple, to determine exactly what the

purpose of such a committee is. I think the following 4 categories seem to cover all the possibilities:

1.) Maintain access (physical such as trails or burecratic such as closures)

2.) Improve access

3.) Maintain existing routes (replacing bolts, cleaning old routes)

4.) Develop new routes (steering committee or approval process for drilling or cleaning)

Everyone is happy when someone else does the first 3, and I think this has generally

been done by small groups of dedicated locals acting on their own time, initative and expense. However, if an organized group wants any control over the development of new routes it will need the backing of the managing land agency if it wants any ability to enforce its ideas. Certainly pursueing such control will cause factions within the climbing community as well.

 

Maybe the best way to determine what a crag management committee should or should not or

can or can not do is to look at those that are in place at other areas. What immediately comes to mind is Eldorado and Boulder Canyons in Colorado.

 

I'm not clear on the details (and might have them wrong) but essentially Eldorado Canyon is a state park and has an approval process in place for the development of new routes or anchors. As I'm not aware of any bolt wars or tensions in that area, apparently it works. I would conjecture that this is in part due to it's governemnt regulation, a close knit climbing community and the fact that it's pretty much fully developed.

On the other hand Boulder Canyon is a battle ground of bolters, choppers and retro bolters. I imagine that a lack of government management, lots of undeveloped potential and no access/crag committee have been

factors resulting in this mess.

Closer to home, Squamish recently became a provincial park with an emphasis on climbing. The local crag committee seems to concentrate on access issues and leave route maintainence and development to what seems like a fairly small group of devoted locals. While a lot of bolted routes have been developed in the last 5 years, the trad ethic has been preserved where applicable (i.e. cracks). I would argue that

Squamish is becoming over developed and that a lot of pathetic and ugly bolt lines are being squeezed onto the cliffs (how many 11b+3pa 22m friction/face climbs do you need?). However, a majority of climbers seem content so maybe the committee and park are acting appropriately.

I'm out of time, but this certainly could be an interesting discussion.

[DCramer]

Driving to work today I was debating whether I should phone or email Matt (Perkins) to encourage him not to bring this matter up on this website. For whatever reason most discussions here dissolve into “bitchfests” complete with gratuitous insults. They move off course and absent the immediacy of a face to face encounter there are few controls to correct a misstatement or a misinterpretation, so they remain that way. Then I decided I should go ahead and risk a post here.

Several friends and myself wrote a pamphlet that successfully raised funds for amongst other things “crag maintenance.’ Additional contributions from several manufacturers and local retailers have enabled us to leverage these funds. Contributions have been made to bolt replacement efforts at Darrington, Index, and Squamish. Funds were also donated to help create rap stations at Vantage. These rap stations were placed in an effort to reduce erosion after discussion with the DOW. An offer was made to one of the main developers of Si/38 so that the funky “chain hangers” could be replaced. Our modus operandi has been to act as a clearing house of funds/equipment and let active locals take charge with the general assumption that bolts are to used as replacements only. Several posters here have been participating in this activity. Funds have also been used to buy refreshments at several cleaning projects. Additionally several other issues have been addressed. Our original goal was to try to expand outside our original group and try to get a broad group of “Cascade Climbers” involved. Unfortunately we have been slow in doing this and as a result have not been nearly as effective as if we had.

It should be relatively easy to create a positive relationship with land managers, other recreational users and fellow climbers. Some but certainly not all relationships need to be coordinated with land managers but these relationships will also remove the need for many controls. Boulder is a sad example of control resulting from climbers unable to act responsibly. It wasn’t too long ago that fist fights were taking place and cars were being wrecked over bolting issues in Eldorado Canyon. The debates on this site inspire the same level of confrontation. If the same energy was devoted to eliminating the Forest Service Parking Fee program, I bet it would be gone. The synergy from a friendly group of collaborators could be remarkable. Let’s get together and talk about issues, concerns, and opportunities. I’d be happy to buy pizza or a pitcher or two. If you’re interested send me a PM.

Darryl

 

[mattp]

Terminal, Freeclimb, Pope, Lambone, Sexual, ChucK, Rafael, Peter, Retro, Dru, Captain, Eddie, Duaner, Nolanr, Jbmaker, Mystic, PMS, Willstrickland, Titsmark, DanPetersom, Slaphappy, Viktor... and more: you have chimed in on the bolting questions -- Any comments on this?

[This message has been edited by mattp (edited 10-18-2001).]

[viktor]

I agree 100% percent with Darryl. Here's a guy who is actually doing something positive for the benefit of all. I commend his efforts and would encourage everyone to offer their support in whatever capacity is needed. Count me in.

[Cpt.Caveman]

I will always offer my opinions when asked......

[slaphappy]

On a face to face basis I'm in, but if it's online forget it!

[mattp]

Cavey: I asked.

[Cpt.Caveman]

While I agree that a face to face decision is best I myself sometimes have a tight schedule. Especially during the work week. I try to make the most of my weekends as usual, out climbing or something like that.

The meetings at brew pubs and all that take place are not usually good for me because of the commutes involved.

I like the idea of establishing a commitee to govern replacing of bolts..... To only use viewers of this website is obviously not gaining the audience as a whole as noted previously. In the end there will always be some person not satisfied as usual. Oh well..

One thing to keep in mind when proposing this sort of governing action is: who will be making the decisions? How many people? How often? What areas?

Some other things are pretty obvious to each situation such as notable crag of history where we would not want to grid bolt...... You cannot govern new route establishers ... You cannot govern actions from people that do not know such an organization would even exist. I never heard of a committe at exit 38 for instance. I could not even imagine what they talk about There are bad bolts, glued on holds and squeeze jobs all over. Just look at Nevermind wall. You have to study a book to decipher what route goes where.....

[This message has been edited by Cpt.Caveman (edited 10-18-2001).]

[chucK]

Here's my two cents...

Though I enjoy the freedom inherent in anarchy in hills, I do think that the most popular areas could or do benefit from some group taking the initiative to maintain the area and/or delineate some measure of decorum.

At popular crags I have concerns with waste disposal (litter and human waste) and unnecessary impact on the surrounding environment (e.g. multiple redundant trails and erosion). These problems could potentially be solved by educating the users to the problems, but probably the best method is for a concerned group to take steps to make it easy for the less-concerned (and everyone) to not trash the place. For example, build some good and obvious trails, block the redundant ones, and provide easy access to waste disposal (honey buckets, trash cans, and the big one, maintenance of said items). In this scenario, there are no potentially thorny issues of who polices whom and how much. By making it more convenient for people to take care of the place, you'll get pretty good compliance. Most people will not be dickheads if it means going out of their way. The crux here is whether or not anyone takes the initiative to do the dirty work. At most popular places some motivated party will get the ball rolling on positive improvements and I wholeheartedly thank those like DCramer and MattP with the drive to initiate this stuff. Once the process does get started I think it's the duty of frequent users of the area to pitch in and help.

The topic of "rules" for crags is more problematic. Without a clear governing body it would be difficult to delineate and effectively enforce any rules on route development, obnoxious behavior and such. Establishment of a governing body, especially one that enlisted the feds, would be worrisome to me. I get all touchy about that "slippery slope" stuff. At present I don't see a big problem at the crags I visit in terms of "rules" and people following them. Sure there's some worrisome stuff, but most people act pretty civil, and when someone gets way out of the line the local community appears to police itself reasonably well. I'm not going to go jumping on a bandwagon to create a system that at some point is surely gonna "cramp my style" on the chance that we might need it someday. I'd rather put off a painful cure until I'm sure it's needed.

 

One more problem I see in the climbing community is that damn ice-cream truck that visits the UW Rock and blares its annoying ditty to distortion. Perhaps winter will take care of that, like the fruit flies in our kitchen.

Chuck

[NoBolt]

Sounds like a great idea. Count me in