telemarker Posted March 21, 2012 Posted March 21, 2012 About lockers on all the draws: Saw some dude doing this same thing in Jtree a few years ago. His follower did not appreciate. Hope the injured recovers fully! So very true! Lockers on draws is overkill and extremely annoying to the second! Quote
mattyj Posted March 21, 2012 Posted March 21, 2012 Forty years later, I still teach newbies to route the brake rope between their legs, demonstrating why, and having them practice this survival maneuver. Not to drift off topic, but I know an older guy who probably has more years climbing experience than I've been alive who does the exact same thing. I'd rather have an autoblock off the leg loop, and I don't think you can combine an autoblock with running the rope between the legs (only prusiks above the belay device, which I don't like as much)? At any rate, I'd never heard of anyone else advocating the rope-between-legs-to-dulfersitz approach, and I'm actually a little surprised to hear it's worked in the field. Quote
JosephH Posted March 21, 2012 Posted March 21, 2012 Pretty much really only two things to know here: a) some idea as to why the webbing / dogbone broke and b) was it his or was it fixed. Everything else about the incident would appear to speak for itself, however unfortunate. Could have been much, much worse; glad it wasn't. Quote
markwebster Posted March 21, 2012 Posted March 21, 2012 Hope the guy gets well. I feel like I might know him from what has been said. The climbing community, especially the Vantage winter climbing group is small. One of our own has gone down...it could have been any of us. But regarding lockers on draws. I've been know to do it at crux moves. Crillz has cleaned some of mine. I figure if I'm leading, it makes me feel safer, so be it. I don't do it all the time. I also sew up my trad leads with excessive pro, same difference. You have a top rope, stop whining :-) Any climb you walk away from is a good climb. Best wishes to the fallen climber, get well buddy. Quote
eldiente Posted March 21, 2012 Posted March 21, 2012 (edited) Forty years later, I still teach newbies to route the brake rope between their legs, demonstrating why, and having them practice this survival maneuver. Umh.. A belay loop and device PROPERLY rigged and in good condition can't fail, it is impossible much in the same way a that your rope can't break, it just can't be done. (when properly used) Ask a QC engineer, you can rig a rap device/system one million times and it will hold one million times. Why would you tell a new climber that it might fail and this is how to plan for that contingency? Not trying to be harsh but this sort of information isn't helpful for new climbers. I saw some new guys climbing at the crag the other day that were stepping on the brake side of the rope while on belay because they were told this was a back-up in case their belay device failed( what!) Sorry for the thread drift on this. Mods feel free to move this elsewhere, sorry all. -Nate Edited March 21, 2012 by eldiente Quote
IndianolaTom Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 Umh.. A belay loop and device PROPERLY rigged and in good condition can't fail, it is impossible much in the same way a that your rope can't break, it just can't be done. (when properly used) -Nate And gun control means using both hands, right? It's circular logic to say that something used in a manner that will prevent its failure will never fail. The problem is that the random collection of unforeseen events that we call 'real life' occasionally leads to events that exceed safe operating parameters. Any "QA engineer" will also verify this, and explain that this is why, even with 'perfectly functioning devices' we employ backups. IMHO, 'tween-the-legs breaking ain't much of a backup, but I can at least see the logic. Quote
keenwesh Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 montypiton has his way of doing things and has been climbing for (far) longer then I've been alive. he's had a few fuckups along the way but is still kicking. Even though I climb with bentgates and don't use lockers on my draws I still respect how he goes about things and keep my mouth shut climbing with him. Take his advice or don't. If one of my bentgates comes unclipped and I survive the ordeal I might adopt lockers on the rope end of my draws. It hasn't happened to me yet in the 7 years I've been climbing but I have heard of it. Just be careful out there and figure out what works for you. Quote
keenwesh Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 reminds me of the people who have shot themselves with a glock and then blame the gun. If you depress the trigger they will fire. Bentgates are easier to clip but are also easier to come unclipped. you decide if the risk is worth the reward. Quote
montypiton Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 I accept responsibility for the thread drift. I meant only to illustrate how my own practices have evolved in response to close calls. But I'll reiterate my suggestion that we can learn a great deal from what appears to have been a combination of a broken quickdraw AND a failed belay. We can learn the most if we have ALL the information. And I'm embarrassed to have neglected best wishes to the injured: heal quickly, and come back as soon as you can! Quote
Buckaroo Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 About lockers on all the draws: Saw some dude doing this same thing in Jtree a few years ago. His follower did not appreciate. Hope the injured recovers fully! So very true! Lockers on draws is overkill and extremely annoying to the second! When I'm on a climb at my limit and there's only one piece holding me from a death fall, and the piece is at a good rest spot or a spot where messing with the locker is possible, I like to use a locker draw. Quote
Crillz Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 About lockers on all the draws: Saw some dude doing this same thing in Jtree a few years ago. His follower did not appreciate. Hope the injured recovers fully! So very true! Lockers on draws is overkill and extremely annoying to the second! When I'm on a climb at my limit and there's only one piece holding me from a death fall, and the piece is at a good rest spot or a spot where messing with the locker is possible, I like to use a locker draw. I don't think anybody has said this is bad a practice. I've done it before, just not on every piece. Quote
obwan Posted March 22, 2012 Posted March 22, 2012 I agree - a right time and place, if the situation warants it use one. Quote
DavidW Posted March 24, 2012 Posted March 24, 2012 In the 40 years I've been climbing I've watched quickdraws unclip themselves numerous times. Once a friend of mine just brushed the second clip with his hip on overhanging 5.11b... the draw popped off and suddenly he was 20-feet off the ground with no pro.. he fell trying to downclimb and his head stopped 6-inches from a big rock... ropes don't break? maybe not... still, I have attended two funerals from ropes cut over an edge. Cut or break it added up to the same for my good friends. NOTHING is impossible! if you think it can't possibly happen to you.. think again... I always take one quickdraw with lockers on both ends... don't always use it but if I believe a single piece is all that's between me and the dirt I consider it. Quote
hanman Posted March 26, 2012 Posted March 26, 2012 Well said Dave I guess we have seen the benefit of possibly using a locker in particular circumstances. I recall early on setting a locker for P3 of Online @ static. About 20' out on that pure friction pad, I slid All the way back, watching that draw for a very long time... And thankful for my being conservative. Had to replace the shoes after that one Mh Quote
high_on_rock Posted March 26, 2012 Posted March 26, 2012 hey all, thank you for the concern, I am doing fine. Within a couple days I will submit a write-up of my full analysis of what happened, but thought I should address the condition of the "victim." Damn I got lucky. The end result is a fractured pelvis (two places, surgery completed now healing); 5 hairline fractures in the spinal column, and a bunch of broken ribs. The pelvis has been fixed and will require wheelchair for minimum 8 weeks, the rest look as though they will heal merely with braces. One leg beaten up, but not broken. Small "slice" in the kidney, should heal itself. lungs were "poked" but no holes, and should heal. ABSOLUTELY ZERO injuries from chest up! Not even a tender spot in my head (was not wearing helmet). Not even a scratch on my body from the shoulders up. Should be a long spring, a boring summer, but by Fall I should be brand new. The belayer suffered some cuts/bruises/scrapes on his arm and upper body as he tumbled about. He will be fine, and was treated at home. I still want to see a couple more items for myself before giving my analysis, because I don't want to get any details wrong. I assume that I will post my thoughts within days, and thank you all for your patience. Love to all! Quote
Drederek Posted March 26, 2012 Posted March 26, 2012 Great to hear you're doing well and you're so upbeat! Quote
sprocket Posted March 26, 2012 Posted March 26, 2012 Ditto, glad you are on the road to recovery. Hoepfully it goes smoothly and you fully recover. Thanks for letting us know. Quote
Coldfinger Posted March 26, 2012 Posted March 26, 2012 Glad to hear you're doing well! Just a thought but you might want to spend more time fishing until you can climb again, maybe find a buddy's boat that can take you while in your chair even, you'll be outdoors and that fresh air (and beer ) does wonders. Quote
Burke M Posted March 26, 2012 Posted March 26, 2012 Saw the chopper come and go that afternoon and its good to hear that youre on the mend. Cheers! -Burke Quote
sobo Posted March 26, 2012 Posted March 26, 2012 Glad to hear you're doing so well, HOR! That damned coulee almost killed me once, too. Whole freak'n column tipped over, with me on top of it. No helmet either - I still don't know how I got up, dusted off, and walked away from that one... Quote
telemarker Posted March 26, 2012 Posted March 26, 2012 Glad to hear you're doing so well, HOR! That damned coulee almost killed me once, too. Whole freak'n column tipped over, with me on top of it. No helmet either - I still don't know how I got up, dusted off, and walked away from that one... Are you sure this didn't happen to you online, but over time you've just convinced yourself it really happened? seriously, it's good to hear HOR is okay, especially no head/neck trauma. Quote
OutdoorGrrl Posted March 26, 2012 Posted March 26, 2012 hey all, thank you for the concern, I am doing fine ... Should be a long spring, a boring summer, but by Fall I should be brand new. So glad to hear that you and your belayer are on the mend! I was teaching students that weekend. For many of them, it was their first outing on real rock. The helicopter rescue was a sobering wake up call. We are all looking forward to learning from your experience when you have the time and details to share. In the mean time, I'm sending all sorts of good energy your way for a speedy and uncomplicated recovery. Quote
sobo Posted March 27, 2012 Posted March 27, 2012 Glad to hear you're doing so well, HOR! That damned coulee almost killed me once, too. Whole freak'n column tipped over, with me on top of it. No helmet either - I still don't know how I got up, dusted off, and walked away from that one... Are you sure this didn't happen to you online, but over time you've just convinced yourself it really happened? Nope, it really happened... Quote
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