Stealing fixed gear in the Alpine

[Jason_Martin]

Matt told me this story awhile ago. From what I understand he was only a way a short time... A few hours, maybe over night. He had went up and set that rope up for the express purpose of fixing a line so that he and the people he was guiding could move over the col more quickly.

All these people who are saying they would take anything they find are not paying attention to what's going on around them. Leaving fixed lines is perfectly all right in any number of circumstances.

I can understand and sympathize with someone who might have thought it was left. But with the amount of time he was gone, I suspect that this gear was honestly stolen. Someone who just "found" it would probably quiz other climbers in the area to find out who left it and why. Boston Basin is not that big. These guys probably jammed the gear in their pack then didn't say anything to anyone.

For all of you who say you take anything you see: Would you take a fixed line off a wall? Would you steal a haul bag cashed at the base of a wall? Would you take someone's food cash on Denali? Would you take draws off of someone's project? Would you take a fixed line off of a sport route that is being manufactured? Would you take someone's backpack while their taking a leak in the woods?

The point is that in the world of climbing we leave gear behind all the time with the intent of coming back for it. It doesn't take that many critical thinking brain cells to figure out when something has been left behind in an epic and when something has been left for a reason.

Jason

[Jman]

Bravo, Jason. Well stated.

[Rafael_H]

Yes! In fact, even if epic, what if those 2 nuts save someone else's ass maybe years later.

Stuck gear and biners on V-threads is different though. I personally don't mind returning to the owners nevertheless.

[therock]

Anyone that steals another guy's property is a total slimeball piece of shit. If I see someone stealing any of my gear they're gonna meet Mr. Whoopass, PDQ. And I ain't blowin no smoke up anyone's ass here either. Thieves are fuckin' scumbag lepers, and I'd shoot the fuckers if it was legal; might just do it anyway.

[This message has been edited by therock (edited 08-31-2001).]

[hikerwa]

I agree that if you are in an area with several other parties, it is not hard to think that someoneleft something on purpose to use. I think that it would be safe to assume that if you are at crag (x) and you spot some gear high on the wall and see the same gear a week later that it is free for the taking. Although the Karmic ramifications could be steep, I for one don't usually pack stuff out (except trash) that doesn't belong to me, and I probably won't try to loosen a piece of gear just to add it to my own rack a) it's not mine, b) I don't usually use gear that I don't know the history of.

Just what I think about...

[Cpt.Caveman]

Thanks Forrest. Damn hard to get that info out of you though

[pope]

Cavey,

After the clubbing, be sure you drag her correctly....not by the feet. I assume you already know this (and why), but just in case!

[hikerwa]

I hate to say, but I have to agree with the mountaineers MOFA book also. For such a small penalty of wieght, less that a few ounces, information that could be easily distorted or misinterpreted should be written down in an emergency situation.

But if I leave my pencil and paper lying by the trail (without a note) I am prepared for stefan to grab it.

[chris_w]

I think that there does need to be more info on this specific situation. How long was it there? What time did this happen? 2AM? Did you see anyone else on route and mention you left a line behind?

I don't agree with leaving lines for an extended period of time. In alpine use, I think that if you leave it, you should recover it on the same day. Especially in a common area like Boston Basin.

As for someone taking the gear, it is a judgement call on that person. Does it look like it was left behind (or is it just booty to them). I have taken gear that looks like it was left behind.

And I do carry a pencil and sheet of paper in my med kit < 1 oz. Never had to leave a note yet, but I have thought of it.

As for the Tooth, I know on Tuesday there was another cam fixed on the south face. I gave it a try, but no go. Just a bloody knuckle. It's starting to look a little bad with everyone trying to get it out.

chris

 

[viktor]

I'm stuck at work on a saturday morning so I'll throw ut this amusing tale:

once upon a time a buddy and his wife were climbing the crack at index by the RR bolts. she couldn't get this cam out so he told her to leave it til they rapped by. another party came up, he yelled to them to leave the piece, etc, the other guy arrived at the belay with the cam in his pocket. When my pal rapped down and the piece was gone he lost his mind. meanwhile, the other guys moved on the Breakfast of Champions or something. My pal was still raging at the base when his pal, Kit Lewis, came by. Kit, as you may know, has an affinity for armaments and was packing his black powder rifle which he was blasting down the road a piece. I guess it took about 10 seconds for that cam to appear on the end of a rope after the warning shot.

 

[Mattski]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cpt.Caveman:

Dan are you serious about the note deal?! C'mon!

Matt, it sounds like you left it just for a few hours ? IS this true give more details...

---

I left the rope for a day, as I was teaching a course preping my students for the North Ridge. I fixed the line in the daylight after descending Sahale with plans to return the following day. */31 was my first opportunity to post any message, Matt

 

[Kalun_D]

Mattski,

Sounds like a honest mistake to me. If I see a fixed rope in the alpine with nobody right below it bivying, I'm going to assume it's abandoned. Not that I would take something like that because if I had to leave a rope I might try to come back for it. If it was just across a 4 ft moat then it's probably going to look like a bail. Sounds like an inappropriate place for a fixed rope and they just assumed it was abandoned. I've been climbing a long time, there's no theives past the end of the trail.

[Stefan]

Would I take rope if it was fixed to large rock wall? No. Why? Becuase it is traditionally found that someone is probably using it as fixed line completing a route. Would I take a fixed line in the Cascades and no one around on a moderate route? Once again, I will say yes, because in the Cascades it is traditional that no one leaves stuff behind--coming across a rope hanging there on a route in the Cascades is highly unusual.

Mattski if you are a guide, then you definitely have pencil and paper to leave a note--it is part of your first aid kit. This discussion would never happen in the Alps. If you leave anything behind, you will never see it again--wether you are a guide or not.

[Rafael_H]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stefan:

Would I take rope if it was fixed to large rock wall? No. Why? Becuase it is traditionally found that someone is probably using it as fixed line completing a route. Would I take a fixed line in the Cascades and no one around on a moderate route? Once again, I will say yes, because in the Cascades it is traditional that no one leaves stuff behind--coming across a rope hanging there on a route in the Cascades is highly unusual.

Mattski if you are a guide, then you definitely have pencil and paper to leave a note--it is part of your first aid kit. This discussion would never happen in the Alps. If you leave anything behind, you will never see it again--wether you are a guide or not.

---

Well, Stefan, 2 years ago I rapped down Breakfast of Champions at dusk and the ropes got stuck. We were late for Greg's party so left the ropes, got up very early in the morning and with pounding hearts rushed to the ropes and got them. Now what if you were there just as we were approaching? Would you be fighting for the "just" ownership of the ropes? What if I met you coming down with my ropes? 5 mintes later? Is it any different from passing by and not helping: "you screwed up, not me"?

Alps don't matter, it's a matter of personal ethics. As you can see everybody's assumptions were wrong in Matt's case and he was around.

This is a tough question, a rusty cam, scratched nut stuck on the third pitch are different from a pair of shoes at the base of a crag and I am really just against that cowboy attitude towards "booty" exhibited by far too many people I know.

[Rafael_H]

To add: I feel that leaving some gear far in the mountains for several days to be retrieve later and without a note is not the smartest thing to do.

[Cpt.Caveman]

It is pretty sad that your gear was stolen and all. Bummer.

Most people know I climb with a lineman sized football player dude so they dont mess with me I must be lucky.

[erik]

matt ski- too bad about your rope and picket. though i would say you used poor judgement leaving gear. remember this is america. the theroretical ethics dictates that you would not leave gear behind in an alpine setting. especailly as a guide. you are to set an example for your clients and leaving gear/garbage is not a good one. you also need to remember you are using public land for your own gains, so i would say that you have to follow a different standard, you need to respect the land more and give more consideration to others in the area and i would say fixing a rope to aid in your profits is wrong in the first place. you have know these people possibly have the idea that this is an accepted practice. i wouldn't leave a fixed anything. especially in b. basin.

i hope you get your stuff back, and if the yo's that got are reading all this crap then they have no excuse for not returning it.

 

[Dru]

Beckey used to leave fixed ropes on all his projects for years at a time until he could return with partners for successful summit push, like on the NE buttress of Slesse

[Lambone]

Erik,

With all due respect...

I'd have to disagree with you on this one. I don't think Matt was wrong because he left a fixed line on an approach for the night. If he was still in the area than it was not really garbage, or abandoned equipment. People fix ropes to speed an early mornig ascent all the time, its common practice in all mountain ranges.

The people who took it should have assumed that it belonged to someone camping in the Basin, or at least asked around. I think its lame that they took it, and I'd call it theft. Just my opinion...

See ya, Matt

[This message has been edited by lambone (edited 09-04-2001).]

[David_Parker]

I have run across gear many times and it has usually been, with little strain on my brain cells, easy to tell if the gear was abandoned (with no expectation of return)such as in a hasty retreat or it is stuck (booty) OR the gear was left to aid in retreat or facilitate a return or ascent and the party that left the gear is most likely somewhere in the vicinity. Also, it's pretty obvious when a rope has become "stuck" during pulling it from a rapell and that is a different story.

I found a bunch of pickets and a couple water bottles once at the top of the Sherpa glacier and there were no footprints headed up Stuart but than I heard voices over on Sherpa and it was obvious they didn't need that stuff until on the way down. Needless to say, I didn't take it.

At Burgandy Col, a party left a sling with a rap ring to descend the steep snow to get around to Chianti Spire. We used it to rap too, but left it on the way back, knowing we beat the party back and assumed they would retrieve it since it was theirs.

It seems pretty obvious to me that this gear in question, whether left for 2 hours or 2 days was going to be retrieved and should have been left, not taken.

If I fixed the first 2 pitches on Liberty Crack so I could do the ascent in a day, I would be pissed if someone took my rope. But also, I would not leave it for more than overnight; not a week.

So what to do with the stuck rope from a rapell? If you can get it unstuck and down off the mountain, you could be helping someone tremendously......if you can find them. Otherwise, they may be coming back the next weekend to get it. Then what? A note on the stuck rope would give them a good chance of getting it back without having to come back. Either way, to me it is not booty. Leave it, or if you take it, do so with the intention of doing your best to find the owner by posting here, notes at REI, Marmot, and any other logical place locally.

I left a full day pack, a pair of sneakers and a trecking pole at the Ross Lake trailhead on HWY 20. I crossed my fingers someone honest found it...which is what happened and I got it all back. The Karma gods are watching!

PS: I put my telephone # (when practical) on lots of my gear.