Amish milk farm raid

[jordansahls]

Seriously, WTF?

 

[Dane]

I with the dog lovers. Which the Amish distinctly are not. Makes me wonder how they'd treat a cow. My bet is it aint so nice.

[E-rock]

Raw milk retards.

[billcoe]

It was a year long multi-jurisdictional investigation too. Wonder what we paid to have big government stuff this down our throats. This only proves once more to me that they are getting way too much money from us in taxes that they can waste it this way.

 

Probably be a few million dollars more in prosecution fees before it's over.

[joblo7]

fucking police state de mierde!

 

[jordansahls]

Raiding the Amish for animal cruelty is something I can understand. However involving multiple government agencies for a year while a criminal case is being built against raw milk sales across state lines reminds me of the Monty Python mosquito sketch where the hunter uses rockets, grenades, machine guns, and a flame thrower to kill the mosquito.

 

Here is another article with a bit more detail from the Amish man himself.

 

This is just a simple case of over regulation, overkill, over-whatever. That or someone was really bored at the FDA.

[Kimmo]

Raiding the Amish for animal cruelty is something I can understand. Here is another article with a bit more detail from the Amish man himself.

 

This is just a simple case of over regulation, overkill, over-whatever. That or someone was really bored at the FDA.

 

i don't know.... after reading the man's account, doesn't really sound like a "raid". I think this is really more about whether or not milk should be legal to sell.

 

I've had similar "raids" on my jobsites. Big deal. The laws are in place; should they be selectively enforced?

[rob]

Raiding the Amish for animal cruelty is something I can understand. Here is another article with a bit more detail from the Amish man himself.

 

This is just a simple case of over regulation, overkill, over-whatever. That or someone was really bored at the FDA.

 

i don't know.... after reading the man's account, doesn't really sound like a "raid". I think this is really more about whether or not milk should be legal to sell.

 

I've had similar "raids" on my jobsites. Big deal. The laws are in place; should they be selectively enforced?

 

+1

[tvashtarkatena]

"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. You know... morons."

[j_b]

i don't know.... after reading the man's account, doesn't really sound like a "raid". I think this is really more about whether or not milk should be legal to sell.

 

I can see how health inspections should be necessary because the safety of raw milk is very much dependent on the cleanliness of the operation but I don't think there is any real basis to ban sales of raw milk as long as it is clearly labeled.

[j_b]

This is just a simple case of over regulation, overkill, over-whatever. That or someone was really bored at the FDA.

 

There would probably be fewer regulations if sales of raw milk were banned outright, but the commercial production and sale of raw milk should be regulated.

[tvashtarkatena]

The Euros are dropping like flies from drinking raw milk. It's the New White Plague.

 

CRUSH THE AMISH!!!!

[rob]

OPPRESSOR! I bet you meet up with Obama to personally plan the next raids on poor farmers!!!

[jordansahls]

I'm not against regulating raw milk. It obviously needs to be regulated, but it doesn't sound like the FDA had any real reason to hassle the farmer. It would be nice to have more information from their side.

 

Also, I have been trying to find more data about infection rates caused by raw milk in the US. It seems that the most common bacterial infections resulting from contaminated raw milk are E.coli 0157 , campylobacter, and salmonella with a majority of the infections resulting from E.coli 0157.

 

The CDC's report from 2009 said that there where 6033 cases of campylobacter recorded, or roughly 13.02 infections per 100,000 people. In the same year there were 459 cases of STEC 0157 (shiga toxin producing E. Coli 0157) and 264 non-STEC 0157 infection which equates to roughly 1 infection per 100,000 people caused by STEC 0157 and a very small number from non-STEC 0157 (CDC doesn't give a number). The report also showed that the most affected demographic were the very young (<4 years old) and the middle aged-older crowd (>50 years old). I didn't have any luck finding data on what percent of infections were caused by raw milk, but the CDC says a majority of cases come from shitty raw beef.

 

Source

 

So your chances of getting a bacterial infection related to many different types of contaminated/raw food is small, and the chances that it was raw milk are even smaller.

 

How much money do you think has been spent on this one case alone? 3 government agencies involved? That doesn't sound cheap. How hard is it to simply track the milk? Maybe try nicely asking the farmer instead of putting him on the defensive(don't the Amish have something against lying?). This whole thing seems needlessly bureaucratic, but maybe that's what things have come down to.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[billcoe]

..........Maybe try nicely asking the farmer instead of putting him on the defensive(don't the Amish have something against lying?). This whole thing seems needlessly bureaucratic, but maybe that's what things have come down to.

 

Jordon, (paraphrasing) the full story is that the Feds sent an earlier demand/violation notice order. The response from the farmer was to change the way he sold the milk. He told his customers, who love this guy and his product, that they needed to join a club or co-op and pay just for the labor: and the milk was free or something like along those lines.

 

Anyway, they finally got this Al Capone of pure milk sales-thank god we are all safe now. So the truth is that we must not need that kind of product as the gobment says so. What we all must need is more unneeded antibiotics and vitamins in the unhealthy dead milk, and that shit, as you see, has already made Pat mental so you can see where it leads......

 

 

[prole]

It would be nice to have more information from their side.

 

Well, it's like this: Hezekiah and Ezekiel went out to milk the cows after supper with Papa. Millie had a sore udder, so Papa went to town...Zzzzzzzzz.

[jordansahls]

Huh. I hadn't seen the whole "racket" thing. A law is a law, I guess.

 

Not to sound like a raging Libertarian, but isn't this the type of shit that happens when something gets over regulated? People find creative ways to circumvent the laws, and than the government spends more time closing the loopholes all the while creating more work and points of enforcement that inevitably result in more circumventing and even more laws being implemented that results in more people hired to enforce the laws until no one knows what the hell they were really fighting against in the first place?

 

Obviously this is a more complex issue than it appears at first glance (like most things), but seriously, it still seems incredibly stupid.

 

 

[tvashtarkatena]

Huh. I hadn't seen the whole "racket" thing. A law is a law, I guess.

 

Not to sound like a raging Libertarian, but isn't this the type of shit that happens when something gets over regulated? People find creative ways to circumvent the laws, and than the government spends more time closing the loopholes all the while creating more work and points of enforcement that inevitably result in more circumventing and even more laws being implemented that results in more people hired to enforce the laws until no one knows what the hell they were really fighting against in the first place?

 

 

 

You just described the War on Drugs, War on Terror, War on...

 

...rhymes with 'moron'.

[tvashtarkatena]

Seriously, we should crush the Amish. The whole Lil Abner/Oklahoma! thing is just too fucked up.

 

Intercourse, PA: the new Waco?

[G-spotter]

raw milk's unsafe? Better drink my own piss!

[billcoe]

Not to sound like a raging Libertarian, but isn't this the type of shit that happens when something gets over regulated? ....

 

I'd bet most of us agree with you, this is really what occurs when you give money and power away....Look at congress these days, afraid to declare war and get voted out of office so they start "allowing" the President that function, next thing ya know, you got wars going all kinds of places.....I'm probably sounding like Pat here, I certainly agree with him up thread on this.....

 

Seriously Jordan, any big bureaucracy will wind up with lots of examples of exactly this kind of thing. The bigger it is and the more money they have the worse it will be. Might be best to just roll over and let them pound sand up yer ass cause there ain't a damn thing you can do about it unless you can defund them. Even then, those dickheads in charge often defund things of good measure first so that YOU feel it. Either way, you wind up with the jbs of the world howling about budget cuts.......

 

 

Certainly in this case, at least there is a rational, scientific case to support da gobment position.

 

 

 

...now, about those tsa pat downs.....

 

 

 

[Off_White]

Presumably the feds are involved because of the "across state lines" business, raw milk sales are normally regulated at a state level.

 

Washington State is not half bad at this, and works with farmers to make it possible. Most of the practices they require are common sense cleanliness issues, and its not over regulated.

 

In the OP's article link they make the argument that other raw foods are not banned, but unlike milk most other raw foods are reasonably expected to be either cooked or washed before consumption.

 

 

[j_b]

I was wondering about the "across state lines" dimension, and couldn't decide whether the underlying dilemma is the probable disparity in enforcement at state level since only ~1/2 the states allow sales of raw milk, or adequate refrigeration during transport/storage since it was the key factor in decreasing incidences of raw milk contamination during the 20th century, and/or strict application of the law supplemented by possible anti-raw milk sentiment in federal agencies.

 

Most foods with pathogens are expected to be cooked but the decision is left to the individual and many people choose to eat raw product when they know the risks are minimized. For example, I occasionally eat raw egg (like in Cesar salad) if I know the provenance.

[Kimmo]

mmmmmm kitfo.

[Off_White]

I think there definitely is some anti-raw milk sentiment in federal agencies, but I don't know exactly what the root of that is. People are not so good at risk assessment, and we all readily accept risks inherent in supposedly regulated agricultural products that greatly exceed the threats posed by raw milk.

 

We looked at the WA State regulatory hoops we'd have to jump through to legally sell raw goat milk awhile back, and the hurdles weren't too high if we really wanted to pursue it. We wound up steering away from that business though we did do a little below the radar "donation" based product sales of milk & cheese to friends. The requirements for rapid chilling of the milk and such really just make good sense, and healthy animals in clean environments don't present much risk. If you know the source of your raw milk, eggs, or whatever, and are familiar with the farm's practices, you can make a reasonable judgement call on the food's safety.