Scott_J Posted November 13, 2001 Share Posted November 13, 2001 The first thing we HAVE to do is give the Spooks free reign. The more we use them the better data we will get. NO rules on their use or methods either. The second thing is bomb, bomb, and bomb again. The third thing is to make sure we use our OPS troops to the best of their ability before we send in the regular troops. The terriosts have to be treated with the most discomfort as possible to break them and I hope we do this. Finally, if there is a finale in my life time, we excute the leaders ASAP. No BS we do them and that is that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teogo Posted November 13, 2001 Share Posted November 13, 2001 Sexual Chocolate; It's still a somewhat free country, but I'd be greatful if we could have climbing topics on the climbing website, politics on the political site(s). Bringing up a subject like this is a gift to the jingoistic right wingers. I've had about all the swill I can handle from CNN, crossfire et al. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeadam Posted November 13, 2001 Share Posted November 13, 2001 Teogo, From Nelson? In Nelson now? Do you know Todd Craig or Jim Gudjohnson? If so email me. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slothrop Posted November 13, 2001 Share Posted November 13, 2001 panther, you are one scary fucker. "seditionists"? guess who were the seditionists in 1776? the only real way to get rid of this problem is to make the idea of attacking the US irrelevant. if everyone who's now a terrorist were fat, busy, and happy, not a one of them would give a shit about learning how to make car bombs. not much of a means, but certainly the end. the parallels to vietnam are numerous: enemy blends with the local population, hides in an extensive network of caves, and is opposed by a faction of dubious legitimacy who we're supporting with military advisors and airpower. yeah, yeah, it's not vietnam, but it's still going to drag out for years and end up a big fucking mess. just because we're aware of our mistakes doesn't mean we won't repeat them endlessly. if we could kill osama bin laden tomorrow, great. i don't see how aiding the northern alliance will get us anywhere, but now that we've committed to it, we better wipe the hardcore taliban off the map and install their weaker members in a stupid coalition gov't with the alliance that will collapse in a few months. a way we might earn peace from afghanistan is to make sure the vultures in the region, especially pakistan, don't carve up the carcass for themselves. after we fuck up the place real good, we have to stand watch on the borders until it gets back on its feet again. if we don't help the afghanis get up after we beat them down, they'll just wait until we're not looking and strike back hard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodchester Posted November 13, 2001 Share Posted November 13, 2001 Alpine Tom: I have generally agreed with many of your positions on climbing topics and found you to be level headed. However I stopped shortly through your last post in this thread when you stated "We’re now embracing nation-building, (having carefully learned exactly the wrong lesson from Daddy Bush’s failure in Iraq)" You have got to be kidding me? Where did you dig that one up? Come on. Where are we (USA) nation building? and when did anyone, right left or otherwise, EVER think or state in any forum that what we are doing in Iraq is Nation Building? NATION BUILDING IN IRAQ!!! HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA Sorry, I can't STOP HA HA HA HA HA. Oh man...that was good. Seriously don't take it too personal...I just can't help it on this one. Someone trying to say the US is trying to nation build in the secular state of Iraq!!! Good one. What kind of Nation are we building? Iraq is and always (modern history) has been a secular state with many nations within (multi-national state). There are various languages, ethnicities, religions, etc. Who's idea was this nation building in Iraq anyway? Old George or Clinton? Maybe it was that old lady Albright...or maybe Powell is finishng the nation building he began in the early 1990s. If that is how we build a nation we should all be very concerned. See Napoleon and Bismark on lessons in nation building. Oh man this was a good one I will share with my friends in the NSPS circles. Nation building in Iraq...oh man.... [ 11-12-2001: Message edited by: Rodchester ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panther Posted November 13, 2001 Share Posted November 13, 2001 The victors can label anyone they want a seditionist. I don't think the British won in 1776 did they? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Figger_Eight Posted November 13, 2001 Share Posted November 13, 2001 The United States body count is already over 4,000 since September 11th. If we kill a few hundred citizens of Afghanistan so be it. This action is just the world resetting itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lambone Posted November 13, 2001 Share Posted November 13, 2001 quote: Originally posted by Cpt.Caveman: I think that the US should increase the bombing. Maybe bomb that place until it is below sea level and the ocean tide comes in and covers the country.... Quick geography lesson Caveman:Afganistan is a land locked country. In order to flood it you'd also have to flood most of Iran and Pakistan. Nice idea though, did you get it from the Bible? Are we (Americans) the new God(s)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter_Puget Posted November 13, 2001 Share Posted November 13, 2001 My original quote: "Yikes Tom did you update an old SDS Vietnam War position paper? Apparently the bombing had some effect witness the Taliban’s recent change of fortune. I wonder if the US hadn’t intervened would England have been brought to its knees? Certainly a question but certainly a valid factor you conveniently left out." Toms quote: "As far as my comments on the effects of bombing, PP, they didn’t come from an SDS position paper. The allies commissioned the Strategic Bombing Review after WW2 that came to essentially those conclusions: bombing doesn’t demoralize civilians, it just pisses them off and encourages resistance. Bombing London would have never won the Battle of Britain; only a land invasion, which Hitler never contemplated, would have done that." My reference to a SDS position paper was refering to your post in total and something of a bad joke. I never was in conflict with the review you mentioned . I said what if the US never was involved what wold have been the effect? It's arguable was my point. Imagine a landlocked England, the Germans supreme how long would England accept bombng before it gave up? My guess is the answer isn't forever. Thus I believe that it is possible to at some point to destroy a country's morale. I guess I wasn't clear enough with my point. On a deeper level my point was that the cases you mention are not the same as the current situation. I think we all know there is a significant difference between the strategic bombing in WWII and the bombing currently happening Afganistan. To compare to two is simply wrong. In fact virtually all of your comparison are of a similar legitimacy. Here is a quick survey of the world: Europe subject to Islamic terrorists and insurgencies, Central Asia - the same, East Asia - the same. Africa - the same. Hey guess what! They are pissied at everyone! Now come up with a general theory supporting those facts and I bet you find that the US as such is not an important factor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panther Posted November 13, 2001 Share Posted November 13, 2001 You asked for it. I'm waiting to see how this whole situation shapes up militarily. If it appears that there will be a need for trained mountain troops or specialists then I will be happy to volunteer. So far I feel like the Bush administration hasn't done nearly enough to gird the population for war. Anyway, what's there to talk about? These people want to kill you, they want to kill me, they are willing to kill innocent civilians-children, mothers, fathers, people sitting in their offices going about their regular lives. They have killed over 7000 Americans in the past decade while Billary sat on their bloated asses and let the country dissolve into self absorbed BS. Death to Osama Bin Laden. Death to the Taliban. Death to those who oppose us. Excerpted from No Remorse via Metallica's Kill 'em all CD.... Only the strong surviveNo one to save the weaker raceWe are ready to kill all comersLike a loaded gun right at your face War without endNo remorse No repentWe don't care what it meantAnother day Another deathAnother sorrow Another breathNo remorse No repentWe don't care what it meantAnother day Another deathAnother sorrow Another breath AttackBullets are flyingPeople are dyingWith madness surrounding all hell's breaking looseSoldiers are houndingBodies are mountingCannons are shouting to take their abuseWith war machines goingBlood starts to flowingNo mercy given to anyone hearThe furious fightingSwords are like lightingIt all becomes frightening to youKnow death is nearNo remorse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt.Caveman Posted November 13, 2001 Share Posted November 13, 2001 I think that the US should increase the bombing. Maybe bomb that place until it is below sea level and the ocean tide comes in and covers the country.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon Posted November 13, 2001 Share Posted November 13, 2001 I think we need to wait for the freshiez to fall in the north of Kabul where Osama bin Hidden is and send a few some dudes in on the pavelows with flight of the valcories blarin on the speakers and while homedudes are skiing down getting some most excellent face shots and chucken their meat off some serious cliffage we can send in a few super hornets with cluster bombs to make a mogel field in front of Osamas cave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panther Posted November 13, 2001 Share Posted November 13, 2001 CC, Learn to swim...learn to swim... Cuz I'm praying for rainAnd I'm praying for tidal wavesI wanna see the ground give way.I wanna watch it all go down.Mom please flush it all away.I wanna watch it go right in and down.I wanna watch it go right in.Watch you flush it all away. Time to bring it down again.Don't just call me pessimist.Try and read between the lines. I can't imagine why you wouldn'tWelcome any change, my friend. I wanna see it all come down.suck it down.flush it down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sexual_chocolate Posted November 13, 2001 Author Share Posted November 13, 2001 I'm not sure I know whether or not to take these responses seriously. Is every subject open for sarcasm and whimsical treatment? Well, it is a climber's forum, after all....right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erik Posted November 13, 2001 Share Posted November 13, 2001 quote: Originally posted by panther: CC,Learn to swim...learn to swim... Cuz I'm praying for rainAnd I'm praying for tidal wavesI wanna see the ground give way.I wanna watch it all go down.Mom please flush it all away.I wanna watch it go right in and down.I wanna watch it go right in.Watch you flush it all away. Time to bring it down again.Don't just call me pessimist.Try and read between the lines. I can't imagine why you wouldn'tWelcome any change, my friend. I wanna see it all come down.suck it down.flush it down. nothing like classic tool to stir the dark feelings in all of us. and by the way (spray) their concert last weekend was phukin bad asss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allthumbs Posted November 13, 2001 Share Posted November 13, 2001 I think it will be interesting to see what kind of assholes the Northern Allience turn out to be when the dust settles. Didn't we fund the Taliban during the Ruskie/Afghan war? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt.Caveman Posted November 13, 2001 Share Posted November 13, 2001 quote: Originally posted by erik: nothing like classic tool to stir the dark feelings in all of us. and by the way (spray) their concert last weekend was phukin bad asss. I'll see you down in Arizona Bay. Yeah Baby!!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sexual_chocolate Posted November 13, 2001 Author Share Posted November 13, 2001 The CIA trained, armed, and funded the soviet resistance in Afghanistan, which then became known as the Mujahedeen. Osama bin Laden was one of the characters who was trained by the CIA, as were many of the current Taliban. I understand the frustration that some of you feel in seeing this topic here on a climbing board, and after starting the thread myself, I had similar feelings. But after seeing the responses this morning, I'm glad for its existence; it's at least giving people a chance to voice their opinions and share them with a diverse group of others, and in the process, perhaps coming to a better understanding of the situation themselves. One thing I do wish, though: I do wish that the personal attacks could be lessened. I know this is a volatile subject, but if we simply slander others for having views different than our own, aren't we doing exactly what the people who most of us oppose are doing? Of course, I'm speaking of the Taliban, and their form of intolerance. I don't agree with their intolerance, and it's just as hard to see from the Americans who seem to be the most opposed to them. So let's lighten up on each other, huh? By the way, an interesting series of presentations are being conducted on the UW campus, for those who are interested. I went to one last night at Kane Hall. Among those speaking were an Afghani doctor and a couple of American doctors who had spent time there. Very informative. A slide-show was also presented, which was wonderful, because it gave the country a face, something that didn't really exist for me before. All this week there are presentations at Kane Hall, for those interested. And thanks for all the thoughtful responses Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sexual_chocolate Posted November 13, 2001 Author Share Posted November 13, 2001 Oops, I hit submit instead of review! I meant to continue with a nod to David Parker; I'm glad you had a chance to express your thoughts and opinions. Take care. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W Posted November 13, 2001 Share Posted November 13, 2001 Rodchester, while it may not "define" nation building per se, I think what Tom is referring to in the case of Iraq is that the CIA was funding and arming Saddam throughout the time of the Iran-Iraq war when Iran-US antagonism was at its peak(read:giving a man who less than a few years later we referred to as an "evildoer" lots of money and weapons so he could mustard-gas the Iranians). And like the above comment suggests, I believe that we also at one point not long ago were sending money to the Taliban. I'm glad to see the Taliban go and am all for the dismantling of terrorist organizations however it happens. under the circumstances we are faced with potentially damning prospects regardless of what we do. However, I think Tom has some valid gripes with our government. Many of the very same people who on domestic issues assert that our government is not to be trusted for anything recoil at the suggestion that our foreign policy is or ever has been misguided and self-serving. Is this so audacious a suggestion? All of a sudden if one questions the government policy one is "un-American" and a traitor. I think real security and peace in the days ahead will come only through being more aware and cognicent of the motives and actions of our government in its dealings with the rest of the world. The government is what we make it. If we as a nation are as righteous as many assert, then our actions will serve the interests of all, not just what is beneficial to us- which includes setting up puppet governments sympathetic to our economic and military interests and then looking the other way while they slaughter their own people, all the while we are supposed to represent freedom and justice and human rights. We can win this war while at the same time demanding something better and more noble of our leaders. [ 11-13-2001: Message edited by: W ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt.Caveman Posted November 13, 2001 Share Posted November 13, 2001 SC, Asking such questions as you have what can you expect? People take the lives of their family members and homeland seriously. I never said anyone had to agree with me. Tom,No, I’ve never actually been shot at, Caveman. Does that invalidate my opinions? The war’s being run and supported by draft dodgers and deserters (Dick Cheney, Trent Lott, Dennis Hastert, Tom DeLay, Dick Armey all managed to avoid any military service, and Bush went awol from is ANG unit.) So clearly prior military service isn’t a prerequisite to join the fun. No it does not invalidate anyone's opinion. Just confirming that you have not served your country in military service.. Getting it in the open. Maybe exposing that you are really a hippy in disguise? I am glad to see in the open and confirm what I thought about others too. I'll keep it in mind when I flame you later Learn to Swim! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sexual_chocolate Posted November 13, 2001 Author Share Posted November 13, 2001 And a note to the person who served overseas and was shot at: I'm wondering what country that happened in? There are many countries where we have a military presence, yet that presence is not welcomed by the general population. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt.Caveman Posted November 13, 2001 Share Posted November 13, 2001 Exactly. I got shot at in Somalia. Those fuckers were not friendly. THey killed each other regularly too. I dont have the time nor do I desire to list the details or experiences here. It's easy to talk smack when you are sitting behind that computer about what you might do or what you think people are doing in these 3rd world countries. Or even what the government should do. I was wanting to enlighten you people that you don't know how it is to be rioted on, shot at, feeling of being mortared on, unknown feeling if your vehicle will be hit in the next convoy.. unless you have been there. So it is easy to sit behind your computer and criticize but I dont see any proposals about how others might go about reacting to the death of thousands of lives lost. I just see a bunch of people whining and complaining about what is not to their standard or liking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodchester Posted November 13, 2001 Share Posted November 13, 2001 Sexual Chocolate: I agree that this has been a good post....even though not the best place for it. You wrote: "The CIA trained, armed, and funded the soviet resistance in Afghanistan, which then became known as the Mujahedeen. Osama bin Laden was one of the characters who was trained by the CIA, as were many of the current Taliban." Actually, the Taliban and the Mujahadeen are very different. They battled it out recently (Mid 1990s) and the Majahadeen lost. Per the standard in the region, the looser capitulated and joined the victor. Usama bin Laden really did not do much in the war against the Soviets. At the time they realized that bin Laden was more valuable raising funds and lobbying well to do supporters through out the world. bin Laden's actual military training is very little and his military experience is even less. The CIA did virtually nothing to train bin Laden himself. It should also be noted that it was not until recently, 1998, that bin Laden decided to carry the Palastiian cause as his own. You see bin Laden is a wonderful marketing guy. He understands propoganda unlike any other Islamic fundamentalist. He has identified many down troden Islamic cuases and decided to carry their banner, only because it helps his cause. Addtionally, the majority of the cash used to fund the mujahadeen did not come from the US taxpayer, but from well to do supporters, large corporations in the mideast, and many Arab and Muslim governments. The Taliban is the brian child of the Pakistani inteligence community. The idea was to bring stability to Afghanistan which had known nothing but war for twenty years. To a certain degree, it worked and to a certain degree it failed. The Afghan people (the many nations that make upo Afghanistan) never fully embraced the Taliban. Many of them will embrace the Americans as liberators from the crush that is the Taliban. Contrary to all of the whining I am hearing, we are not bombing the Afghan people. Funny thing is, they seem to know that better than most on this site. Most get out of the way of the bombing and now that Kabul has fallen, they are moving back into town. If you run the numbers I am willing to bet that history will show that at no time in history has the tonage droped to civilian casualty rate been so remarkably low. well sorry for the babling and I truely did not mean to rip on Alpine Tom so much. I actually am an ardent supporter of a Palaitinian state. I have been so for well over ten years. Remember our friend Nevelle Chamberlain and we will have peace in our time!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EddieE Posted November 13, 2001 Share Posted November 13, 2001 I'm going to sit behind my computer tonight with a bunch of beer and get bombed. This topic was brought up last month and was thankfully put out of its misery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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