Boycott AZ...especially its Tea!

[JosephH]

Wrong, employment is the overwhelming driver. Period. $20-25 billion worth.

[Nitrox]

Wrong, employment is the overwhelming driver. Period.

 

I used to live on the Mexican border and Mexican women would cross to give birth and then, assuming there were no complications, would leave. Imagine that, hospital absorbs the cost and now we have a new citizen who later can apply for social services because he/she was born here. Still happens but they don't leave anymore.

 

I agree, the employer is a problem but it isn't the only one. Just slapping a fine on the employer isn't going to fix the problem, it's too big at this point.

 

 

[JosephH]

An ironclad national ID and a $10k fine per employee would shut it down overnight. Ditto for a national ID for healtcare services. It's all a matter of will and how serious you are.

[j_b]

Especially since studies show that the crime rate is typically lesser among immigrants, especially illegals, who don't want or need any extra attention brought upon themselves.

Source please.

 

Since you have a history of only asking for sources as a diversion technique, I'll give you one source among many and see what you do with it before I proceed to your next request:

 

"We find that the foreign-born, who make up about 35 percent of the adult population in California, constitute only about 17 percent of the adult prison population. Thus, immigrants are underrepresented in California prisons compared to their representation in the overall population. In fact, U.S.- born adult men are incarcerated at a rate over two-and-a-half times greater than that of foreign-born men.

The difference only grows when we expand our investigation. When we consider all institutionalization (not only prisons but also jails, halfway houses, and the like) and focus on the population that is most likely to be in institutions because of criminal activity (men ages 18–40), we find that, in California, U.S.-born men have an institutionalization rate that is 10 times higher than that of foreign-born men (4.2% vs. 0.42%). And when we compare foreign-born men to U.S.-born men with similar age and education levels, these differences become even greater. Indeed, our evidence suggests that increasing educational requirements in the provision of visas would have very little effect in the criminal justice arena.

But immigrants may affect public safety in ways other than direct involvement in criminal activity. For example, immigrants may induce more criminal activity among the U.S.-born by displacing the work opportunities of the U.S.-born; in other words, immigrants may “take away” legal jobs, possibly leading to more crime among natives. To measure underlying criminal activity more broadly, we also investigate crime rates in California cities. We find that on average, between 2000 and 2005, cities that had a higher share of recent immigrants saw their crime rates fall further than cities with a lower share. This finding is especially strong when it comes to violent crime.

Finally, even if immigrants are less likely to engage in criminal activity than the average native, the criminal activity of their U.S.-born children is also of interest. Therefore, we briefly discuss current evidence on later generations, finding continued low levels of criminal activity.

Taken together, our findings suggest that spending additional dollars to reduce immigration or to increase enforcement against the foreign-born will not have a high return in terms of public safety. The foreign-born in California already have extremely low rates of criminal activity. . . . in California, U.S.-born men have an institutionalization rate that is 10 times higher than that of foreign-born men (4.2% vs. 0.42%).

 

http://www.ppic.org/content/pubs/cacounts/CC_208KBCC.pdf

[j_b]

Especially since studies show that the crime rate is typically lesser among immigrants, especially illegals, who don't want or need any extra attention brought upon themselves.

Does that factor in the fact that being an illegal is illegal? Just saying.

 

Probably not, but the people who claim that many illegals are criminal, pretend that it is about crime against American citizens and usually try very hard to avoid mentioning that illegal crime statistics are overwhelmingly about illegal immigration activities.

[j_b]

Especially since studies show that the crime rate is typically lesser among immigrants, especially illegals, who don't want or need any extra attention brought upon themselves.

 

Only when the study ignores that illegal immigration is a felony.

 

I'd like to see your source cited.

 

when people like you mention crimes by illegals they don't mean being illegally in the US. Stop the charade.

[j_b]

No only securing the border is a pipe-dream, but illegal immigration won't go away without reconsideration of trade policies that notably led to the loss of millions of farming jobs in Mexico thanks to corporate welfare for US agribusiness. Illegal immigration is a world wide issue; if capital and goods can move completely freely so should labor.

[Off_White]

It wasn't cherry picked at all. A complete sentence--unedited. In any event, it was just meant as a reminder that the flip side of this issue can--and often does--have some pretty ugly consequences. Of course, I suppose you're free to keep throwing out the hysterical racism card absent any real solutions to a real problem.

 

Cherry picked as in whoa, you found an example! It's a myth that illegal immigrants are the cause of a crime wave in this country, but that doesn't mean they don't commit crimes, some of which are really horrible, as is the case with the incident you've held up as an example. As j_b has substantiated, immigrants are actually less likely offenders than the indigenous population.

 

I'm not saying that illegal immigration from Mexico is not a problem that needs to be addressed, I'm saying that this law in Arizona will do next to nothing to change that. You've got to change the demand rather than try to stifle the supply. If there were no jobs here for illegal immigrants, the flow would reduce to a trickle. As long as they can find work here that provides an economic opportunity they can't find at home they will come, despite the myriad of hardships and impediments, including increased police harassment.

 

Trying to stifle the supply has worked so well for the War On Drugs, eh?

[tvashtarkatena]

Um...what crime wave? Crime has been decreasing over the long term since the early 90s. More Right wing bullshit.

 

I was watching Faux News yesterday. The diet of bullshit they feed their viewers never changes. Terrorism. Crime. Dems who fuck up. Repeat.

Edited May 21, 2010 by tvashtarkatena

[rob]

[tvashtarkatena]

You must be at work already. Get to the store, beyotch!

Edited May 21, 2010 by tvashtarkatena

[olyclimber]

Hey, Palin is screwing up the GOP in warshington state! She is teabagging some dude instead of Dino!

 

[tvashtarkatena]

ACLU and others file class action lawsuits to block the Arizona Law

 

Looks like the boycotts are starting to bite, too. AZ gov just established a commission to figure out how to bring business back into the state LOL.

 

Arizona has fucked itself, and it's really not gonna get much in return. Realistically, the new law will have little to no effect in stopping illegal immigration.

 

Classic example of Right Wing Stupid.

Edited May 21, 2010 by tvashtarkatena

[prole]

I'm reserving judgment on this issue until I find out what Rand Paul thinks.

[prole]

He's a maverick.

[Nitrox]

I'm only 2 miles from the border (Shilshole), so YES, YES YOU CAN!

 

I called in a favor and got some footage of TTK trying to blend in.

 

 

[video:youtube]

[Fairweather]

 

Cherry picked as in whoa, you found an example! It's a myth that illegal immigrants are the cause of a crime wave in this country, but that doesn't mean they don't commit crimes, some of which are really horrible, as is the case with the incident you've held up as an example.

 

But, as in this particular case, I can't think of a crime that would be as preventable. Had this illegal not been shielded by a local government that was itself acting outside the law, these murders would not have happened. Providing an anecdote is all I have done--and is all I have claimed I am trying to do.

[Fairweather]

Um...what crime wave? Crime has been decreasing over the long term since the early 90s.

 

Of course it has. Refer to the prison graph you posted earlier.

[tvashtarkatena]

Incarceration rates have skyrocketed not due to skyrocketing violent crime, which has famously decreased since the early 90s. They've skyrocketed because of a) the War on Drugs and b) mandatory sentencing laws, like 3 strikes, that remove judicial discretion and c) longer sentences in general.

 

52% of all federal, and 20% of all state prisoners, are in for drug offenses.

 

Interesting, drug use in the US has not gone down at all since the War on Drugs began in 71 under Nixon. According to a 2008 report comparing drug use among 17 nations, we remain the highest nation on earth in terms of illicit drug use. For example, an American is 4 times as likely to have used cocaine than a citizen of any other country.

 

And, speaking of coke, the price per gram has dropped more than 4 times since the early 80s, when Reagan really stepped up the War on Drugs. Average purity has increased by more than 50% during the same period.

 

Pot, for its part, is now 20 times more potent.

 

At least the War on Drugs did that for us.

Edited May 22, 2010 by tvashtarkatena

[pink]

An ironclad national ID and a $10k fine per employee would shut it down overnight. Ditto for a national ID for healtcare services. It's all a matter of will and how serious you are.

 

 

so who owns and operates your favorite roach coach???? that i went with you to two years ago, TWICE!!! i'm thinkin $10k is pretty steep for a burrito.

 

 

[Nitrox]

Incarceration rates have skyrocketed not due to skyrocketing violent crime, which has famously decreased since the early 90s. They've skyrocketed because of a) the War on Drugs and b) mandatory sentencing laws, like 3 strikes, that remove judicial discretion and c) longer sentences in general.

 

52% of all federal, and 20% of all state prisoners, are in for drug offenses.

 

Interesting, drug use in the US has not gone down at all since the War on Drugs began in 71 under Nixon. According to a 2008 report comparing drug use among 17 nations, we remain the highest nation on earth in terms of illicit drug use. For example, an American is 4 times as likely to have used cocaine than a citizen of any other country.

 

And, speaking of coke, the price per gram has dropped more than 4 times since the early 80s, when Reagan really stepped up the War on Drugs. Average purity has increased by more than 50% during the same period.

 

Pot, for its part, is now 20 times more potent.

 

At least the War on Drugs did that for us.

 

It certainly explains j_b's posts.

 

 

[j_b]

Looks like Adolf quickly ran out of arguments.

[Fairweather]

Incarceration rates have skyrocketed not due to skyrocketing violent crime, which has famously decreased since the early 90s. They've skyrocketed because of a) the War on Drugs and b) mandatory sentencing laws, like 3 strikes, that remove judicial discretion and c) longer sentences in general.

 

52% of all federal, and 20% of all state prisoners, are in for drug offenses.

 

Interesting, drug use in the US has not gone down at all since the War on Drugs began in 71 under Nixon. According to a 2008 report comparing drug use among 17 nations, we remain the highest nation on earth in terms of illicit drug use. For example, an American is 4 times as likely to have used cocaine than a citizen of any other country.

 

And, speaking of coke, the price per gram has dropped more than 4 times since the early 80s, when Reagan really stepped up the War on Drugs. Average purity has increased by more than 50% during the same period.

 

Pot, for its part, is now 20 times more potent.

 

At least the War on Drugs did that for us.

 

You've made my case. Taking the 3 strikes idiots off the streets like we did is probably the best thing this state has ever done. (No thanks to Democrats here.) As for the 20% who languish in state prisons for drug offenses, I would want to see more details, but releasing non-violent, non-repeat offenders sounds ok to me. I've modified my stance on the drug issues somewhat. But to hell with the rest.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

 

this is what happens when the weather fucking sucks ass for weeks on end

[Fairweather]

Mount Pete has given up almost 40,000 vertical feet these past three months. Other than a St Helens day trip, this little hump of a hill is all I have to show for 2010 so far.